" Feel " ...... FM3 -vs- Helix ..... thoughts (?)
- Thread starter BenIfin
- Start date
BenIfin
Roadie
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- 965
F.w.i.w .... impedance is obviously a potential issue .... but I wonder if any perceived or "consensified" views are to do with the differences in the analog front and back end - which includes impedance loads (?)
And yep .... all the new Amps which started coming from the Matchless DC30 onwards are i.m.o in a different level to the original release Amps.
Ben
And yep .... all the new Amps which started coming from the Matchless DC30 onwards are i.m.o in a different level to the original release Amps.
Ben
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- 3,723
I don't know what a Fractal feels like but the Helix's AC30 is one of my most favorite models of all time because of its squish and reactivity to changes of the volume knob/pickup config. It's my not-so secret weapon for making split coil humbuckers sound like legit single coils. It's one of the models that had been onboard since V1 and I've played no other model that can do what it does for me.
Take, that consensus.
Take, that consensus.
![[Nathan]](/data/avatars/m/0/613.jpg?1726885163){kind=avatar}
[Nathan]
Roadie
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- 412
Helix has heavier tones, confirmed
northern_fox
Roadie
- Messages
- 453
use a power amp / cab for the best 'feel' comparisons. I at least personally find differences to be more evident this way
ivanmancic
Groupie
- Messages
- 26
Any "feel" complaints I had went away after I installed treatment panels in my home studio. After that, pretty much all modelers and sims felt good, even if they did not before.
I still think GT-1000 has a little "extra" in that regard for whatever reason, but to me it also sounds a bit off for recording, so I prefer Helix of FM3.
As someone mentioned, Helix is great because it allows you to easily control the feel (and sound) via Sag parameter.
I still think GT-1000 has a little "extra" in that regard for whatever reason, but to me it also sounds a bit off for recording, so I prefer Helix of FM3.
As someone mentioned, Helix is great because it allows you to easily control the feel (and sound) via Sag parameter.
JiveTurkey
Goatlord
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- 16,601
HX Sag at 0. Always 
the swede
Shredder
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- 2,051
My massive contribution to this thread is that I trust everyone in this thread ears over my own ears.
And that “feels” like being an adoptive child being tossed around between 6 hbtq parents/couples and 4 hippie collectives and 1 old fart typical dad born in the 60s.
And that “feels” like being an adoptive child being tossed around between 6 hbtq parents/couples and 4 hippie collectives and 1 old fart typical dad born in the 60s.
Jarick
Rock Star
- Messages
- 3,403
I don't know how to describe or assess feel, so lately I've been thinking about this instead:
What makes me want to keep playing vs what makes me want to tweak?
Generally, I find that it may take a little longer to set up a tone I like in Fractal, but once I'm there I tend to want to keep playing more than on Helix stuff. So maybe that means I enjoy the feel?
What makes me want to keep playing vs what makes me want to tweak?
Generally, I find that it may take a little longer to set up a tone I like in Fractal, but once I'm there I tend to want to keep playing more than on Helix stuff. So maybe that means I enjoy the feel?
I currently am using a Helix floor through a power amp into a cabinet.
(I have owned MANY modelers including all the “top tier” ones, and profilers, over the decades.)
Fractal, Helix, Tonex, Quad Cortex, Kemper are all equivalent in “feel” or “immediacy” depending on how you tweak them.
BUT, it seems to my ears, that when playing through your typical Fender or Marshall amps, there is an aspect to the “immediacy” of the sound and guitar/amp interaction that is difficult to quantify yet it DOES exist.
I don’t believe the perceived difference in sonic “immediacy”/feel is bias—at least not in my case. I love vintage gear and I love every new high tech thing that comes out!
I don’t believe that gear of any time period is superior ONLY because of the date it was manufactured.
Having said this, I prefer the “immediacy/feel” of SOME real amps more than any modelers or profilers.
Not ALL amplifiers are created equal; some (like a Fender Bassman”,) have a liveliness, a bounce, and a “3D” quality to them, and others sound “dimensionally flat,” sterile, and not as immediate.
But note: real amplifiers are NOT “better,” they just react differently to tactile input, and in their immediacy of response to your playing.
Amps, profilers, modelers, are all tools. The only best one is what works best for you.
All these tools have limitations.
Unless you are financially well-off, have roadies, or a place to play as loud as you want, you will have to pick the musical tool that works best for you.
In a perfect world, my gear use would look like this:
1. Playing Clean Electric Guitar:
59 Fender Bassman
Deluxe Memory Man
TC Stereo Chorus Flanger
EP3 Echoplex
Vintage Tube Spring Reverb
2. Playing Higher Gain Electric Gtr
Gibson Lab Series L5 or
Engl amp heads + 4x12 cabs
Revv amp heads + 4x12 cabs
Marshall amp heads + 4x12 cabs
Kraken amp heads + 4x12 cabs
Vox AC30 amp
With various gear such as:
TC2290
Alesis Midiverb 2
Vintage Ross Flanger
Roland RE301
Roland SRE-555
BK Butler Tube Driver
Vintage Fuzz Face
MXR Flanger/Doubler
Boss DD2
Etc, etc
I’ve owned nearly all of this gear throughout my life.
However, I don’t have the room to store all of it, nor the occasion/opportunity to play loud in large venues.
Therefore, I have settled on using what suits my needs best, while still being satisfying to me in the areas of sound quality, portability, and ease of use, while simultaneously offering me the greatest flexibility/functionality.
Axe Fx sounded incredible, but the Helix user interface (which didnt require a computer screen,) was preferable to me.
The Kemper sounded/felt better than the Helix, was EASY to get a great sound, but was EXTREMELY limited in functionality and fx routing. Not to mention that I preferred seeing a list of effects I was used to and KNEW how to tweak (as offered in the Helix,) compared to the “generic” list of delays, reverbs, and choruses in the Kemper— which you must tweak forever to get to sound like famous “name-brand pedals” that you are familiar with.
So, unless you have the physical space, finances, and geographic blessing of being able to play loud, then it’s all a trade-off.
But does the Helix “feel” worse than the Axe?
Not in my opinion.
(I have owned MANY modelers including all the “top tier” ones, and profilers, over the decades.)
Fractal, Helix, Tonex, Quad Cortex, Kemper are all equivalent in “feel” or “immediacy” depending on how you tweak them.
BUT, it seems to my ears, that when playing through your typical Fender or Marshall amps, there is an aspect to the “immediacy” of the sound and guitar/amp interaction that is difficult to quantify yet it DOES exist.
I don’t believe the perceived difference in sonic “immediacy”/feel is bias—at least not in my case. I love vintage gear and I love every new high tech thing that comes out!
I don’t believe that gear of any time period is superior ONLY because of the date it was manufactured.
Having said this, I prefer the “immediacy/feel” of SOME real amps more than any modelers or profilers.
Not ALL amplifiers are created equal; some (like a Fender Bassman”,) have a liveliness, a bounce, and a “3D” quality to them, and others sound “dimensionally flat,” sterile, and not as immediate.
But note: real amplifiers are NOT “better,” they just react differently to tactile input, and in their immediacy of response to your playing.
Amps, profilers, modelers, are all tools. The only best one is what works best for you.
All these tools have limitations.
Unless you are financially well-off, have roadies, or a place to play as loud as you want, you will have to pick the musical tool that works best for you.
In a perfect world, my gear use would look like this:
1. Playing Clean Electric Guitar:
59 Fender Bassman
Deluxe Memory Man
TC Stereo Chorus Flanger
EP3 Echoplex
Vintage Tube Spring Reverb
2. Playing Higher Gain Electric Gtr
Gibson Lab Series L5 or
Engl amp heads + 4x12 cabs
Revv amp heads + 4x12 cabs
Marshall amp heads + 4x12 cabs
Kraken amp heads + 4x12 cabs
Vox AC30 amp
With various gear such as:
TC2290
Alesis Midiverb 2
Vintage Ross Flanger
Roland RE301
Roland SRE-555
BK Butler Tube Driver
Vintage Fuzz Face
MXR Flanger/Doubler
Boss DD2
Etc, etc
I’ve owned nearly all of this gear throughout my life.
However, I don’t have the room to store all of it, nor the occasion/opportunity to play loud in large venues.
Therefore, I have settled on using what suits my needs best, while still being satisfying to me in the areas of sound quality, portability, and ease of use, while simultaneously offering me the greatest flexibility/functionality.
Axe Fx sounded incredible, but the Helix user interface (which didnt require a computer screen,) was preferable to me.
The Kemper sounded/felt better than the Helix, was EASY to get a great sound, but was EXTREMELY limited in functionality and fx routing. Not to mention that I preferred seeing a list of effects I was used to and KNEW how to tweak (as offered in the Helix,) compared to the “generic” list of delays, reverbs, and choruses in the Kemper— which you must tweak forever to get to sound like famous “name-brand pedals” that you are familiar with.
So, unless you have the physical space, finances, and geographic blessing of being able to play loud, then it’s all a trade-off.
But does the Helix “feel” worse than the Axe?
Not in my opinion.
- Messages
- 6,757
HX Sag at 0. Always
dronerstone
Shredder
- Messages
- 1,353
If you still have that L5, try running the Helix into the FX return.
"Best of both worlds", an awesome modeling flagship together with the musical power and patina of an upper-tier late 70's solid-state amp with worn-in speakers.
I do that a lot, and they seem to like each other very much.
buddachile
Newbie
- Messages
- 3
Right. Basically, guitar tone for recording has been solved.
Haven't tried the newest big firmware update on the FM3, but had it a couple of years ago, and IMO it does gets close enough to real amp - and neither does Helix, which I still own (HX Stomp actually). The Fractal stuff has a particular feel just like Helix, and after playing both extensively Fractal feels a bit more "comfortable" to play... Hard to describe. I feel like I fight a bit more trying to play Helix models. Hard to describe.
But neither feel as close to an amp as the UA stuff does though IMO. After years playing tube amps through reactive loads, this is the first time I actually think it's really close.
IMO what UA did was to let a player call the shots, not an engineer. Graphs are great, but I think some stuff gets overlooked that ends up not resulting and the closest possible model. And when I say player, I mean player's player. Also helps a lot if this person has great experience with the gear being modeled. That's James Santiago from UA. Go listen to some of his interviews and you'll also see the lengths he went through with the tests. Stuff way past what anyone would already call corksnifery... And the result speaks for itself. With all the faults I could point out about their pedals, the quality of the modeling is really not one of them.
But neither feel as close to an amp as the UA stuff does though IMO. After years playing tube amps through reactive loads, this is the first time I actually think it's really close.
IMO what UA did was to let a player call the shots, not an engineer. Graphs are great, but I think some stuff gets overlooked that ends up not resulting and the closest possible model. And when I say player, I mean player's player. Also helps a lot if this person has great experience with the gear being modeled. That's James Santiago from UA. Go listen to some of his interviews and you'll also see the lengths he went through with the tests. Stuff way past what anyone would already call corksnifery... And the result speaks for itself. With all the faults I could point out about their pedals, the quality of the modeling is really not one of them.
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