Calibrating Input Level for Plugins

[DLC86]

I just made a capture for the first time on Tonocracy and I have to say they totally nailed the interface calibration, they made it as easy as it can be made, and the measurement corresponds perfectly to the ones I did last year on my fm9's input 1 (17.5 dBu).
Excellent work @atomicamps

But there are a couple small things that could be improved imho:

1. You can't type voltage readings higher than 1V and that's a problem on my fm9 cuz it outputs higher voltages with the test tone Tonocracy sends out. Bump this limit to 1.5 or 2 please.
EDIT: I know tonocracy suggests to set the output volume so to read a voltage between 0.48 and 0.52 on the DMM, but doing so results in a wrong dBu value for that output (much lower in my case), even though it doesn't impact the other 2 calibrations.

2. The dBu adjustment in the input block in Tonocracy throws off NAM captures that were already made for my specific dBu level.
I know NAM models don't have any metadata for this, but maybe a trim can be added in the NAM loader block to compensate without altering the value on the input block?

PS: @James Freeman i think you should add a mention to Tonocracy in the OP cuz that's probably the easiest way to do the measurement at this point.

 

[2dor]

Can someone with a Quad Cortex also test this please?
I just got a response from Neural's customer support via their devs.



I didn't mention Apollo or anything, I just mentioned about using the QC as an interface for using Neural plugins. So now I'm presuming that Neural plugins are set up for 12dBu. The only thing that doesn't add up is the QC specs - they haven''t posted the DI's maximum input level. The reamp send's output a 9.5dBu signal, so I assumed this is what the input uses too.

The information from NDSP here suggests that the QC DI is actually giving a 14.26dBu signal. So either there is some internal levelling going on to make the capturing matched, OR they just mixed up boost and cut (which would get closer to that 9.5dBu range).

Either way, the above quote makes me think NDSP have set their plugins up for 12dBu inputs - the most sensible choice given how common it is on most consumer level interfaces.

I have a QC coming in, hopefully, tomorrow - sold my FM3 I got recently after having been spoiled by NAM but I do need something I can easily tweak on the go (band practice, gigs) and accommodate 2 guitars, bass and vocals and the QC fits the bill..

I see the QC listed in your spreadsheet as 15 dBu ().

Guess that's it then? Their manual shows +60 dBu max input gain but I guess that's using the 10Mohm input impedance rating on the combi jacks.

That "Capture Out" port has no rating in the manual though BUT you can use the Send1 port for Neural Capture and that one seems to have the +9.5 dBu rating you mentioned.

Guess most Neural Captures will need a ~ 5.5 dB input boost (delta between the 9.5 and 15) to behave as close to the source gear as possible.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I have a QC coming in, hopefully, tomorrow - sold my FM3 I got recently after having spoiled by NAM but I do need something I can easily tweak on the go and accomodate 2 guitars, bass and vocals and the QC fits the bill..

I see the QC listed in your spreadsheet as 15 dBu ().

Guess that's it then? Their manual shows +60 dBu max input gain but I guess that's using the 10Mohm input impedance rating on the combi jacks.

That "Capture Out" port has no rating in the manual though BUT you can use the Send1 port for Neural Capture and that one seems to have the +9.5 dBu rating you mentioned.

Guess most Neural Captures will need a ~ 5.5 dB input boost (delta between the 9.5 and 15) to behave as close to the source gear as possible.

Yeah 15dBu is what Neural told me by email. I’d seen 9.5 in their specs for the reamp out. Would be great if you’re able to measure and verify these!

 

[2dor]

Yeah 15dBu is what Neural told me by email. I’d seen 9.5 in their specs for the reamp out. Would be great if you’re able to measure and verify these!

Once it gets here I'll try to follow the steps to get the readings. I'm actually also hoping they get the plugins out soon - it'll be great to be able to fit the Nameless, Cali, NTS, Ganophyre etc on presets and take to practice or gigs.

 

[2dor]

NDSP were kind enough to reply & confirm the specs for the "Capture Out" port:

"
The capture out is basically the same as the send ports, but without the ground cancelling outputs (when used with a TRS - TS)

• Connector: ¼” TRS
• Impedance: 560 Ω
• Maximum Output Level: +9.5dBu
"

HTH

 

[Los-D]

Neural Captures will need a ~ 5.5 dB input boost

Do you mean when capturing or after the fact? I captured a plugin with the QC and found (by ear) it sounded closest at about 5.3db gain bump after it was captured (plus reducing Bass by a few dbs to match source)

 

[2dor]

Do you mean when capturing or after the fact? I captured a plugin with the QC and found (by ear) it sounded closest at about 5.3db gain bump after it was captured (plus reducing Bass by a few dbs to match source)

Right when the capture finishes, you get the option to switch between the Cortex and Reference gear; there's also a level/gain trim knob for the profile over there - bump this by 5.5 dB (which, if the Inputs 1 & 2 are rated at 15 dBu, then that would make up the delta between their rating and the Capture Out port that shoots the training sequence signal into the amp - it's rated at 9.5 dBu so a bit hotter).

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, are there any values for Two Notes' Genome? Looks as if that could become my go-to NAM player (in case it turns out I need one, which might as well not be the case...).

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Fwiw, are there any values for Two Notes' Genome? Looks as if that could become my go-to NAM player (in case it turns out I need one, which might as well not be the case...).

so far they are playing dumb to this topic. “Use your ears bro” is the best they are giving atm

 

[Sascha Franck]

so far they are playing dumb to this topic. “Use your ears bro” is the best they are giving atm

I'm actually getting along fine with the same settings I'm using for HX Native, and as I don't care much about whatever "authenticity", I will in fact just use my ears for the time being. But sometimes I stumble across some presets or NAM captures and just happen to think that the gain structure and/or patch name just doesn't correlate with my ears.

 

[dronerstone]

I'm actually getting along fine with the same settings I'm using for HX Native, and as I don't care much about whatever "authenticity", I will in fact just use my ears for the time being. But sometimes I stumble across some presets or NAM captures and just happen to think that the gain structure and/or patch name just doesn't correlate with my ears.

NAM captures are hit-or-miss in the input levelling/gain department.

Probably NAM's single biggest weakness.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I'm actually getting along fine with the same settings I'm using for HX Native, and as I don't care much about whatever "authenticity", I will in fact just use my ears for the time being. But sometimes I stumble across some presets or NAM captures and just happen to think that the gain structure and/or patch name just doesn't correlate with my ears.

Tbh, the built in Genome amp models are too crap to be authentic anyway . The NAM models inside Genome will run at whatever gain levels they were captured at, so it’ll vary model to model. Same thing no matter which software you load them into.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Tbh, the built in Genome amp models are too crap to be authentic anyway

Yeah, noticed that already. Some of them even are really, really bad.
But as a NAM player, I find it to be more comfortable to deal with than Tonocracy or the original NAM player. File organisation is a little better, too.

NAM captures are hit-or-miss in the input levelling/gain department.

The NAM models inside Genome will run at whatever gain levels they were captured at, so it’ll vary model to model. Same thing no matter which software you load them into.

Yeah, noticed that as well already. Some of them really had me go "WTF?!?" until I either massively raised or lowered the input gain. And yet, I already discovered some pretty cool things that I'd simple like to have in my arsenal as a little distraction from HX Native (which, btw, really isn't delivering great on-screen-editing experience compared to pretty much anything else - for me, S-Gear still wins big time there, simply because you can see all relevant elements at once instead of clicking around to select blocks as if there was no tomorrow).

 

[dronerstone]

Yeah, noticed that already. Some of them even are really, really bad.
But as a NAM player, I find it to be more comfortable to deal with than Tonocracy or the original NAM player. File organisation is a little better, too.

I kept rooting for Two Notes until I saw their newsletter announced the introduction of extra-purchase DLC-style effects.

That's a huge no-go for me. A business model I absolutely despise.

"Oh, Genome is a free update, but after a couple months we'll start to charge you for some of the effects."

I see where this is heading, and nope, thanks, I'll hop off at the next stop and take another bus. Sorry, but you lost me.

 

[Sascha Franck]

"Oh, Genome is a free update, but after a couple months we'll start to charge you for some of the effects."

Wait, are you saying they'll charge you for what's in there already? Or just for new stuff?

 

[dronerstone]

Wait, are you saying they'll charge you for what's in there already? Or just for new stuff?

Just for new/additional stuff, still sucks imho

Looking up the email in question, they're advertising "Super-Saver GENOME Component Packs, Starting at Just 49.99€".

They have entered the world of Freemium.

DynIR's are alright, but this is just bullcrap. I'll uninstall Genome and use my Cab M+ only when necessary.

PS: Yes, I'm triggered.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Just for new/additional stuff, still sucks imho

I think it's fine. I didn't have to pay a single cent for anything so far. And combining NAM captures with those DynIRs I have is giving me quite some nice sounds.

However, I just fooled around comparing some NAM captures I liked and tried to get close within HXN (without even going for any detailed measuring, let alone Match EQs) - and after all, I think I'm fine just using HXN. If only on screen editing wasn't that much of a clickfest... I might in fact end up buying S-Gear one day, just for the great user interface.

 

[[Nathan]]

Has anyone found what input the ToneX pedal or ToneX one pedals use? I cant see any info in their manuals for it.

 

[Jkist7]

Has anyone found what input the ToneX pedal or ToneX one pedals use? I cant see any info in their manuals for it.

My understanding is, since it is hardware, it makes the most sense to leave it where it is, and adjust to taste as needed.

Input level standardization makes sense in the context of audio interfaces, since the way they are set up varies wildly. Each one uses different values and such.

However, the Tonex pedals are all the same. Therefore there is no reason to adjust it really. It's like plugging different guitars into the same amp. Of course a single coil guitar won't drive the amp as hard.

The difference is you can turn up the input gain and make the single coils drive it harder if you want to. But it's not necessary.

If you really want to be accurate, best you can do is listen to YouTube videos of the captures, and play with the input gain until the tone sounds similar. But then it might be off for other captures.

I say leave it where it is and sleep soundly at night

 

[efsenable]

I apologize for the stupid question, but I own the Audient iD22 and a 3 Neural DSP plugins. are the input values indicated on the excel spreadsheet should be dialed into the plugins or on the physical device ?