Calibrating Input Level for Plugins

[Aleksi]

that only makes sense for SOME interfaces ,most of the time it’ll need some adjustment on the plugin. The QC is one that’ll need a boost, it doesn’t use the same internal level as the plugins.

But yeah, for a HW modeller they’re all calibrated for their own input because they know their own specs

In many cases this advice will likely get you closer than cranking the gain, I think. Thus it's better advice than saying to increase gain until clipping.

However, this is the first time I've actually seen Neural say anything about how to set the QC input gain.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

In many cases this advice will likely get you closer than cranking the gain, I think. Thus it's better advice than saying to increase gain until clipping.

IDK. Behringer at 0 gain can still be way too hot, as can a Kemper or quite a lot of other gear.

And likewise, there’s plenty of gear with 15dBu or more headroom at 0. At 3dB it’s definitely noticeably to play and often bring a bit undergained feels worse than a bit overgained.

and also, for which plugin? Behringer at 0 might give a perfect level for Amplitube, where a UAD Apollo at 0 would be miles off. Total opposite for NDSP plugins.

The main benefit of setting to 0 isn’t that it’s a better starting point, it’s that it gives you a starting point where you actually know what your headroom is.

 

[Aleksi]

IDK. Behringer at 0 gain can still be way too hot, as can a Kemper or quite a lot of other gear.

And likewise, there’s plenty of gear with 15dBu or more headroom at 0. At 3dB it’s definitely noticeably to play and often bring a bit undergained feels worse than a bit overgained.

and also, for which plugin? Behringer at 0 might give a perfect level for Amplitube, where a UAD Apollo at 0 would be miles off. Total opposite for NDSP plugins.

The main benefit of setting to 0 isn’t that it’s a better starting point, it’s that it gives you a starting point where you actually know what your headroom is.

Talking about Neural, since that's where the advice is coming from. I simply said that in most cases this advice is better than telling users to crank their gain as high as it goes without clipping. And again, this advice is given to people who then have to ask how to set their interface input gain to zero. Not exactly the type who goes around measuring their interface or seeking out this info.

 

[Orvillain]

And again, this advice is given to people who then have to ask how to set their interface input gain to zero. Not exactly the type who goes around measuring their interface or seeking out this info.

Thick ignorant assholes, basically.

 

[Aleksi]

What is needed is a setting in the plugin that sets gain levels automatically according to your interface. Just choose your interface from a list of choices. Then just tell people not to fiddle their knob.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

@Sascha Franck moved to this thread just because its about guitar rig rather than Genome.

whats the deal with the guitar rig learn feature? the manual makes it sound like its more for maintaining uniform levels of the output by using the input as a guide (rather than calibrating for input levels). The manual is kind of vague besdies "play loudly" - no mention of pickup types.

Learn: Adjusts Volume automatically by analyzing the input signal and determining the optimal output level. For best results, play loudly while the analyzation is in progress.

Regardless, that seems to be more for levelling the output, unless I'm missing something. Ben Adrian at Line 6 mentioned doing something similar for levelling his presets, simply by bypassing blocks and comparing the level to the original DI. This meant he could move effects pre or post amp and maintain a similar amount of headroom from them. That still requires calibrating your input level (or using something that has already done it for you).

 

[Sascha Franck]

whats the deal with the guitar rig learn feature? the manual makes it sound like its more for maintaining uniform levels of the output by using the input as a guide (rather than calibrating for input levels). The manual is kind of vague besdies "play loudly" - no mention of pickup types.

See, goes to show how long I haven't been exactly dealing with this anymore. They apparently removed the learn function, apparently even back with V5 already (last version I have installed, can't have a look at the older ones, thanks to Apple...), maybe it's now back with a different function, because when it was there in previous versions, it certainly didn't have anything to do with the output level (which would be rather absurd anyway, at least IMO) but was exactly working like a gain plugin in front of your amp sims. Seriously, I always thought it was a great idea, no clue why they removed it (but then, NI is f***ing around with their plugins all the time, very often not for the better).

Anyhow, sorry for not being able to prove this.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

See, goes to show how long I haven't been exactly dealing with this anymore. They apparently removed the learn function, apparently even back with V5 already (last version I have installed, can't have a look at the older ones, thanks to Apple...), maybe it's now back with a different function, because when it was there in previous versions, it certainly didn't have anything to do with the output level (which would be rather absurd anyway, at least IMO) but was exactly working like a gain plugin in front of your amp sims. Seriously, I always thought it was a great idea, no clue why they removed it (but then, NI is f***ing around with their plugins all the time, very often not for the better).

Anyhow, sorry for not being able to prove this.

No worries, I was just a little curious. Funilly enough, with NAM etc's normalisation a lot of users find that output levels are really varied (just because clean models are more dynamic so they'll normalise pretty differently to gainy models). Its not really an issue for me but a lot of users do like their presets to be level matched

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

You know what really grinds my gears? There are several YouTubers suddenly jumping on the input level train, trying to explain the problem without even really understanding it and then drawing wrong conclusions and giving bad advice. I just watched a video of some guy that offers his "easy solution": just record all guitar DI tracks at -18dB. Just because „don’t record too hot“ is the only thing he was able to understand.

 

[James Freeman]

97% like ratio.... he must be right.

 

[Orvillain]

You know what really grinds my gears? There are several YouTubers suddenly jumping on the input level train, trying to explain the problem without even really understanding it and then drawing wrong conclusions and giving bad advice. I just watched a video of some guy that offers his "easy solution": just record all guitar DI tracks at -18dB. Just because „don’t record too hot“ is the only thing he was able to understand.

In their urge to generate content, they simply don't have time or the inclination to understand. The death of rock and roll keeps on truckin'

 

[MirrorProfiles]

damn that video had a lot of bad advice/misunderstanding. As soon as anyone mentions the peak level of the guitar as something to reference, you know you're in trouble. Left a long comment, hopefully he's receptive to it.

 

[Sascha Franck]

hopefully he's receptive to it.

Apparently he is. Good work!

 

[hernandezLLL]

I hope you find this useful.

Many thanks for this!

But I have some questions:

1. Does Helix expect to be "calibrated" on the input OR in the front of the amp section? So, if I intend to add any distortion pedal (inside Helix) with a lot of gain, I'm all good with the gain boost on the input, or do I need to calibrate so a now new distorted sine wave (read with a true RMS multimeter since it is not pure sine wave anymore as I added the pedal) makes the gate open at -15.3dB? I would add two instances of Helix, one after the sine wave generator seen in step 1., with only the distortion pedal, and another on the INST input track with only the hard gate, as seen in step 5. (the one where I will effectively adjust the input level). I tried this, made sure the reading was 0.500V RMS on the multimeter, and learned that the new input level I need to apply changes a little (varies from 0.50dB to 2.20dB from each tweeking on the pedal knobs, again, making sure the same 0.500V RMS signal is read by the multimeter while turning the bypass button of the Helix instance that has the distortion pedal on and off). Shouldn't be always the same boost, since the RMS voltage is the same having the distortion pedal on or bypassed? I also see that the dBFS value of the sine wave generator track (the one I'm measuring with the multimeter and getting the same RMS voltage while turning the pedal on and off) changes aswell.

2. What about if I add this distortion pedal not on helix, and just use a 3rd party plugin?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thank you again and good shreds.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Many thanks for this!

But I have some questions:

1. Does Helix expect to be "calibrated" on the input OR in the front of the amp section? So, if I intend to add any distortion pedal (inside Helix) with a lot of gain, I'm all good with the gain boost on the input, or do I need to calibrate so a now new distorted sine wave (read with a true RMS multimeter since it is not pure sine wave anymore as I added the pedal) makes the gate open at -15.3dB? I would add two instances of Helix, one after the sine wave generator seen in step 1., with only the distortion pedal, and another on the INST input track with only the hard gate, as seen in step 5. (the one where I will effectively adjust the input level). I tried this, made sure the reading was 0.500V RMS on the multimeter, and learned that the new input level I need to apply changes a little (varies from 0.50dB to 2.20dB from each tweeking on the pedal knobs, again, making sure the same 0.500V RMS signal is read by the multimeter while turning the bypass button of the Helix instance that has the distortion pedal on and off). Shouldn't be always the same boost, since the RMS voltage is the same having the distortion pedal on or bypassed? I also see that the dBFS value of the sine wave generator track (the one I'm measuring with the multimeter and getting the same RMS voltage while turning the pedal on and off) changes aswell.

2. What about if I add this distortion pedal not on helix, and just use a 3rd party plugin?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thank you again and good shreds.

0. What is the first sentence in the post you quoted?

1. the calibration applies for the whole plugin. You can do it with the input slider or with a gain trim before the plugin. It applies for all internal fx and processing.

2. if you use a real hardware pedal, just run that before the input - you are calibrating your converters, they don’t care what you run into them. If you are using 3rd party plugins, they’ll have their own calibration levels. you’ll need to gainstage for each one accordingly.

 

[Orvillain]

0. What is the first sentence in the post you quoted?

 

[James Freeman]

 

[theimageofall]

I’m pleased this is getting more discussion now.

I had the pleasure of playing a Diezel Schmidt today expecting to enjoy some amazing crunch tones (which I did), but there was actually lots more gain available in the real amp than I was expecting after playing a Tonex profile in advance. So much so in fact that I can’t actually get the Tonex profile up to those levels of gain even if I drive it to the max using the input knob all the way up (with my interface level at zero - where I always leave it).

I was hoping the amp wouldn’t give me as much gain actually as it has got me seriously considering purchasing it…which I wasn’t expecting as a result of playing the Tonex profile! It could be amp specific I guess.

It would really help if IK could figure out a way of helping users understand the input gain levels, but appreciate it won’t be easy for all the existing profiles made by everyone.

 

[hernandezLLL]

0. What is the first sentence in the post you quoted?

Sorry, after some weeks working with this I totally forgot about the note lol my bad. Fixed it.

1. the calibration applies for the whole plugin. You can do it with the input slider or with a gain trim before the plugin. It applies for all internal fx and processing.

Thanks in advance. I believe in you, but if I need to have 2 Helix instances in the global chain, should I put the boost only on the first one or in all of them?

If you are using 3rd party plugins, they’ll have their own calibration levels. you’ll need to gainstage for each one accordingly.

How? with VU meter? Can I just route out the digital pedal (3rd party plugin) from the soundcard output (making it analog signal again) into another input, calibrate that input for helix and we're good? But then, on the first input (where the guitar is pluged in), I do not know the value for the 3rd party input gain, right? Still pretty new to this, thanks for the help :)

Can you confirm if the distorted sine wave trick works? And do you have any idea why the dBFS value is different (thence the input gain dB value) for two cases where the RMS voltage is the same?

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Thanks in advance. I believe in you, but if I need to have 2 Helix instances in the global chain, should I put the boost only on the first one or in all of them?

Once you have done the first one, you are correct for the rest. Just be careful with which level adjustment controls you use as this can mess with it.

How? with VU meter? Can I just route out the digital pedal (3rd party plugin) from the soundcard output (making it analog signal again) into another input, calibrate that input for helix and we're good? But then, on the first input (where the guitar is pluged in), I do not know the value for the 3rd party input gain, right? Still pretty new to this, thanks for the help :)

Can you confirm if the distorted sine wave trick works? And do you have any idea why the dBFS value is different (thence the input gain dB value) for two cases where the RMS voltage is the same?

No, just use the spreadsheet in this thread and adjust to the dBu levels that are provided.