Are tubes the answer?

[Boudoir Guitar]

Replying to @Ibanez_76 's questions re: tube preamps here to keep that discussion from cluttering up @2112 's AMA thread:
We left off here:

"I have never been able to tweak my fm3 to sound excellent, I've watched all the videos in the world, tried axe exchange, to buy presets and nothing really helps. I play really low volumes, that might be why presets others make lack always something and have too much mids. Same with ir:s, never found a one I really like. Dynacabs helped matters somewhat. I tend to overscoop the mids, but if I don't higain sounds sound boxy. I need to take out -2-4 db of 250-2khz but then sound lacks body. So my options really are boxy or thin . That's why I would like to add tube warmth but you guys are saying that won't help. Maybe I should drop the mids in the global eq and not in the eq block? That I have not tried yet.

When I bought my fm3 I thought I'd get 5/5 tones but I'm at 3.5/5 at best. User error I am certain. Or then I'm asking too much out of my hs-7 monitors"

I would say that tubes are not going to change this. In my opinion/experience, if you can hear the acoustic sound of your electric guitar pretty clearly along with the sound coming from the hs-7 monitors nothing will solve the problem aside from either moving to headphones or bumping up your volume. At some point, with the volume down low, it doesn't matter how many tubes, how big or expensive the monitors you are using, etc., the guitar will sound boxy and/or thin.

 

[Foxmeister]

At some point, with the volume down low, it doesn't matter how many tubes, how big or expensive the monitors you are using, etc., the guitar will sound boxy and/or thin.

I concur!

There's probably not a great deal you can do to compensate for FletcherMunson when playing at very low volumes, so it is likely to always be a crap experience - @Ibanez_76 would likely be better off playing with headphones.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Volume is the answer

 

[Whizzinby]

Scooping mids is normal when playing at lower volumes and/or in isolation. You’re effectively trying to make a full sound across the entire spectrum, where other instruments would normally be blending in to the point of being unable to clearly determine where the bass is ending vs where the guitar is starting etc. A really mid forward guitar in isolation can be really shitty sitting and playing by yourself.

Cranking the mids is much more relevant when you start playing with other instruments or dropping it in a mix to make it “cut”. (Where the guitar is only going to live in the midrange)

There is no universal way to dial in anything for all volumes, and all scenarios. (Band, mix) So it wouldn’t really be a surprise if you downloaded someone else’s preset and it sounds too mid focused. That dude could have dialed it in for band practice, recording, or playing at a considerably different volume level. And of course this could just be the adjustment to miked guitar tones vs Amp where I'm at but I don’t know the context.

 

[sleewell]

 

[Achilles]

Even at my current volumes - ~70dB range I can tell the difference between the SS preamps and tube heads. It's all in the way the notes ring out. Not feed back but the note decay itself. If I'm playing all busy I wouldn't be able to tell but as soon as I shake a note and really let it fade off - that's where tubes shine.

 

[Ibanez_76]

When I lived in my parents house I had a tube Marshall and 4x10" it never sounded thin even if I played it master volume barely open. Of course that was 25years ago so maybe I don't remember it that well. You guys maybe right about the volume thing.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

When I lived in my parents house I had a tube Marshall and 4x10" it never sounded thin even if I played it master volume barely open. Of course that was 25years ago so maybe I don't remember it that well. You guys maybe right about the volume thing.

If you take your Yamaha HS-7s and put them on the floor like I imagine your 4x10" cab was, you will get some of the fullness back based on floor/room coupling. But, in my experience, what seems like "really quiet" through a guitar amp is still a decent bit louder than "really quiet" through monitors.

 

[laxu]

I play really low volumes, that might be why presets others make lack always something and have too much mids. Same with ir:s, never found a one I really like. Dynacabs helped matters somewhat. I tend to overscoop the mids, but if I don't higain sounds sound boxy. I need to take out -2-4 db of 250-2khz but then sound lacks body. So my options really are boxy or thin . That's why I would like to add tube warmth but you guys are saying that won't help. Maybe I should drop the mids in the global eq and not in the eq block? That I have not tried yet.

The text in earthworm size letters is the key issue.

Since I get most of my playing done at home, the tone I get there has been important for me. Over the years I have had almost every volume reduction method except the overpriced Fluxtone speakers.

• Attenuators
• Fryette Power Station
• DIY Power Station: reactive loadbox -> poweramp -> guitar cab
• Master volume tube amps
• Tube amps with various power scaling techniques
• Eminence Maverick "FDM" speaker. It has a knob in the back to reduce the sensitivity all the way down to 91 dB.
• Pedals -> clean tube amp
• Analog hybrid amp -> guitar cab
• Loadbox -> IRs -> studio monitors or headphones
• Digital modelers -> IRs -> studio monitors or headphones
• Digital modelers -> IRs -> freakin' Marshall Acton Bluetooth speaker

Once the volume goes down low enough, none of these sound that great. The issue is how we hear things at different volumes and not anything the gear is doing. It's just impossible to have a particularly satisfying sound when you hear your electric's acoustic guitar strings almost louder than the sound coming from whatever speakers.

If the volume has to be really low due to e.g family, thin walls, neighbors, then your absolute best option is a good digital modeler like HX Stomp or FM3 -> good set of headphones. I recommend the Sennheiser HD6XX for this as they don't need much correction and sound pleasant with guitar. Fractal also has tools to simulate the effects of playing through speakers with e.g the Gain Enhancer feature in the Amp block Output section. You want some good room reverb to simulate being in a room instead of having your ear stuck against a speaker grille where a close mic would be.

If you are able to have at least a bit of volume, then you have more options and most of the things on my list work fine. My BluGuitar Amp 1 ME -> BluGuitar Nanocab sounds pretty great even down to fairly low volume. But it will never sound like a big 4x12 cab, so you need to be able to make some compromises.

Digital modeler -> good studio monitors is usually a better option when you get more dimension to the sound by playing in stereo. This won't sound like a big 4x12 cab either, but it will sound like the 4x12 miced on your favorite records.

I don't really do anything special for my Fractal presets. Most look like IN -> Amp -> Cab -> Reverb -> OUT for my basic medium gain overdriven rhythm sound.

• Amp: Anything you like, just adjusted with the Authentic tab. No advanced features, nothing.
• Cab: Dyna-Cab, whatever you prefer, just roll through them with the amp model you use. Put the Condenser mic on the cab, set it to about 1.0 position and 2.8 cm distance. At least through my setup that sounds pretty good for any of the cabs with nothing else done to it. No high cuts or anything.
• Reverb: Medium Room at default settings with mix adjusted to taste.

This is as simple as it gets. I use a pair of Genelec M040 studio monitors in a fairly small home office room.

For volume, just turn it up and you will find a point where it seems to just start kicking ass. Doesn't matter if you are doing it with a real guitar cab or studio monitors. For me that volume point measures at around 85-90 dB @ 1m. This is loud-ish, but not uncomfortably so. But it is louder than is appropriate for many home situations.

Using studio monitors in a nearfied listening position will help you get that volume down to probably 80-85 dB @ 1m. When you need to go quieter, you need to compromise and just accept that no "tube amp warmth" in the world will change those missing pieces - volume and our perception at different volumes.

 

[laxu]

If you take your Yamaha HS-7s and put them on the floor like I imagine your 4x10" cab was, you will get some of the fullness back based on floor/room coupling. But, in my experience, what seems like "really quiet" through a guitar amp is still a decent bit louder than "really quiet" through monitors.

Not only that but just by being on the floor and you being standing up, you lose a lot of the high end from the studio monitors so it sounds sweeter and smoother. I have a nice 4x10 cab and it plays by the same rules - if I am standing up I lose a lot of high end and even more by standing off axis.

Totally agree on us usually playing a guitar cab louder than we think. A decibel meter is a good purchase.

 

[DrewJD82]

I think using a smaller pair of monitors would go a long way.

The last couple weeks as I’ve been learning the HS8’s, my biggest issues are thin, boxy or scratchy guitar tones. They’re putting out a lot more frequencies than the 5’s and need to be turned up to a certain volume for all those frequencies to be audible, there’s a ton of low end information that gets cut off the quieter they go. I’d imagine the HS7’s aren’t that much of a difference. You can still HEAR the bass, but any feeling from it is gone and it’s almost like reading text instead of watching a video, just hits a different sensory point.

I’m curious if @Ibanez_76 has the chance to crank the 7’s up at any point to hear what things are sounding like when they’re a bit louder.

 

[the-trooper]

I play really low volumes

I would say that tubes are not going to change this

Agreed. Some reasonably low volume, but still loud enough to not hear the strings, is OK. But anything lower than that I'll much rather use headphones.

 

[jay mitchell]

I got me this some weeks ago:

That's a beautiful guitar. I've lusted after a single-P90 175 for some years now. IMO, Jim Hall's best-sounding recordings were done with one.

acousticly super loud. I was very happy with it…untill I amped it. I like mids…but this was over the top.

All my archtops have the same issue. The problem is worse the more acoustically active a guitar is. You can't reliably dial in your amplified sound until you're playing loud enough that you hear little or no acoustic sound. With most archtops, that's quite a bit louder than bedroom volume. IME the best way to judge your amp sound at low volume is to record it direct and listen afterward.

Also, here's a general tip that has worked for me with all kinds of guitars. I've found it helps to add just a little squeeze in front of the amp/amp block. Don't make the attack time too short (the release time can be short, though), don't overdo the compression ratio, and add just a bit of makeup gain.

 

[ragingplatypi]

Speakers and their cabinets are the answer.

 

[timbuck3]

Replying to @Ibanez_76 's questions re: tube preamps here to keep that discussion from cluttering up @2112 's AMA thread:
We left off here:

"I have never been able to tweak my fm3 to sound excellent, I've watched all the videos in the world, tried axe exchange, to buy presets and nothing really helps. I play really low volumes, that might be why presets others make lack always something and have too much mids. Same with ir:s, never found a one I really like. Dynacabs helped matters somewhat. I tend to overscoop the mids, but if I don't higain sounds sound boxy. I need to take out -2-4 db of 250-2khz but then sound lacks body. So my options really are boxy or thin . That's why I would like to add tube warmth but you guys are saying that won't help. Maybe I should drop the mids in the global eq and not in the eq block? That I have not tried yet.

When I bought my fm3 I thought I'd get 5/5 tones but I'm at 3.5/5 at best. User error I am certain. Or then I'm asking too much out of my hs-7 monitors"

I would say that tubes are not going to change this. In my opinion/experience, if you can hear the acoustic sound of your electric guitar pretty clearly along with the sound coming from the hs-7 monitors nothing will solve the problem aside from either moving to headphones or bumping up your volume. At some point, with the volume down low, it doesn't matter how many tubes, how big or expensive the monitors you are using, etc., the guitar will sound boxy and/or thin.

yes

 

[Ibanez_76]

Thx everybody for the answers! I have thought about a pair of senheisers, I'll pull the trigger on those soon. Meanwhile I experiment with my setup since you all gave me things to think about.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I would say that tubes are not going to change this.

Not at all from my experience.
Because...

In my opinion/experience, if you can hear the acoustic sound of your electric guitar pretty clearly along with the sound coming from the hs-7 monitors nothing will solve the problem aside from either moving to headphones or bumping up your volume.

... all this.

A decent pair of headphones will likely be the best choice in case you have to play at really low volumes.
If you can bump things up at least a little bit, a pair of decent nearfield monitors might be suitable, too (Genelecs maybe?).

In any case, all this absolutely sounds like a volume thing. IMO there's a certain level threshold - once you get below that, playing isn't too much fun anymore, regardless of all the Fletcher-Munson-Deafeating-Trickery you might come up with. Interestingly enough, I can still enjoy listening to music below that level and I can as well, say, record a MIDI bass or so just fine, but once it comes to guitars and playing them myself, it just takes some more volume.

 

[Ibanez_76]

Not at all from my experience.
Because...


... all this.

A decent pair of headphones will likely be the best choice in case you have to play at really low volumes.
If you can bump things up at least a little bit, a pair of decent nearfield monitors might be suitable, too (Genelecs maybe?).

In any case, all this absolutely sounds like a volume thing. IMO there's a certain level threshold - once you get below that, playing isn't too much fun anymore, regardless of all the Fletcher-Munson-Deafeating-Trickery you might come up with. Interestingly enough, I can still enjoy listening to music below that level and I can as well, say, record a MIDI bass or so just fine, but once it comes to guitars and playing them myself, it just takes some more volume.

Then it's a case of sorry neighbours!

 

[Jarick]

I think using a smaller pair of monitors would go a long way.

The last couple weeks as I’ve been learning the HS8’s, my biggest issues are thin, boxy or scratchy guitar tones. They’re putting out a lot more frequencies than the 5’s and need to be turned up to a certain volume for all those frequencies to be audible, there’s a ton of low end information that gets cut off the quieter they go. I’d imagine the HS7’s aren’t that much of a difference. You can still HEAR the bass, but any feeling from it is gone and it’s almost like reading text instead of watching a video, just hits a different sensory point.

I’m curious if @Ibanez_76 has the chance to crank the 7’s up at any point to hear what things are sounding like when they’re a bit louder.

Did you just pick up a pair of HS8’s?

I read through this thread and swapped my HS8 out for the Genelec 8020s I still have and definitely noticed the tone getting more boxy. There's something with both the low end that is pumping due to the smaller woofer and enclosure along with a bump in the midrange right around the crossover point, where the HS8 seems to have more extended frequencies and a little dip in the mids maybe?

Put the HS8's back up today and they are nice at low volumes. WAY too big for my desk but hey the sound is pretty good. I do think you have to be aware of maybe a little too much high end with them though. Not enough to try and compensate with the HF switch, but maybe a little less presence or treble.

 

[ejecta]

Volume is the answer

And to that IMHO tubes, when loud for playing guitars, have a bit more pleasant playing experience. They react differently than solid state. But yes…. I agree wholeheartedly that volume is a huge factor.