Are tubes the answer?

[kartikg3]

Art and perception of gear and the product that gear produces is influenced a lot by how the gear looks, and what our brains think they "know" about what the gear is and what it is made up of. I suffered from this quite a bit when playing through digital gear. It never let me enjoy the practical benefits of digital gear and had me chasing the impracticalities of tubes and analog for far too long, and left a dent on my musical productivity. The way I battle it these days is by getting a better understanding of modeling. To me tones = signal running through circuits and tubes and power amps and speakers and hitting the ears. I realize now that digital modeling DOES emulate a lot of this. Aka digital tubes. Once I switched my perspective to digital gear as gear having digital "tubes" I was fine again and could hear and feel the tube-ness from my digital gear. Personal experience and journey. YMMV.

 

[laxu]

Do you own fractal? It maybe the best modeler but it still is a modeler. Kraken preamp, I think it has 2 tubes in it. Sounds and feels better than fm3

Yes I do, and have owned a bunch of tube amps as well, which I have confirmed to perform no better than a great modeler when running into IRs and studio monitors.

So I'm more convinced that the issue is not the FM3, but user error. So I recommend you explore if you can get it to your liking rather than jumping into buying an old preamp which has its own quirks and potentially might require repairs.

Connect the Kraken "Through" output to the FM3 Input 1.
Connect the Kraken "Loop Out" to FM3 Input 2.

Make a preset that looks like this:

Now by turning the Kraken on/off, when off it should go through to IN2 -> Amp -> Cab -> OUT1 and otherwise just through the cab.

Start by using whatever IR you like with the Kraken so you rule out the cab sim.

Make sure your output levels match - the Kraken should not be louder than the Amp route.

Then try to figure out an amp model that would be closest to your Kraken. Since it's not modeled on Fractal, I'm guessing that maybe one of the Friedman or Bogner models might get you in the ballpark.

Now you can compare and try to figure out where it's going sideways for you.

 

[Ibanez_76]

Art and perception of gear and the product that gear produces is influenced a lot by how the gear looks, and what our brains think they "know" about what the gear is and what it is made up of. I suffered from this quite a bit when playing through digital gear. It never let me enjoy the practical benefits of digital gear and had me chasing the impracticalities of tubes and analog for far too long, and left a dent on my musical productivity. The way I battle it these days is by getting a better understanding of modeling. To me tones = signal running through circuits and tubes and power amps and speakers and hitting the ears. I realize now that digital modeling DOES emulate a lot of this. Aka digital tubes. Once I switched my perspective to digital gear as gear having digital "tubes" I was fine again and could hear and feel the tube-ness from my digital gear. Personal experience and journey. YMMV.

I have nothing against modeling, I've tried to like it more than I like. I get it's covinient. I get it has made gigging/practises easier, I get it sounds great in the mix. But I don't care none of that since I play only in one room. I do not need to consern myself of 'in the mix sound'. I just want a fu®©ing roaring distortion, big low end and lots of presence. I just 15minutes ago watched Leon's video of making 5minutes Petrucci tones. It sounded decent and would work "in the mix" but compared to videos I watched of studio preamp and quad preamp, it sounded 3.5/5 at the best while the real preamps sounded 5/5. Thats my take on this.

 

[JiveTurkey]

So "roaring distortion"...through studio monitors?

 

[kartikg3]

I just want a fu®©ing roaring distortion, big low end and lots of presence. I

I play a modeler into a real cab, in a room, and I get exactly this. But that's my ears and a very subjective opinion.

 

[Mongillo19]

I know I'm a huge advocate for get works for you and not the pros but Metallica, arguably one of the top mesa ambassadors, went from their mesa amps to fractal for live use.

I have to imagine that's a big vote of confidence. If it doesn't work for you it doesn't work. I agree with others my concern that it may be user error. That's all. Trying to save you the headache of chasing your tail

 

[Whizzinby]

Cabs are the answer, if you’re wanting that more immersive in the room experience. What you feed to that cab (amp, modeler etc.) is kind of irrelevant.

Same as going to monitors. Once you run it back through IR’s to monitors it’s kinda irrelevant what’s feeding it. (Modeler, amp)

Playback method is the only distinguishing factor, not the source.

 

[Ibanez_76]

Yes I do, and have owned a bunch of tube amps as well, which I have confirmed to perform no better than a great modeler when running into IRs and studio monitors.

So I'm more convinced that the issue is not the FM3, but user error. So I recommend you explore if you can get it to your liking rather than jumping into buying an old preamp which has its own quirks and potentially might require repairs.

Connect the Kraken "Through" output to the FM3 Input 1.
Connect the Kraken "Loop Out" to FM3 Input 2.

Make a preset that looks like this:

View attachment 17195

Now by turning the Kraken on/off, when off it should go through to IN2 -> Amp -> Cab -> OUT1 and otherwise just through the cab.

Start by using whatever IR you like with the Kraken so you rule out the cab sim.

Make sure your output levels match - the Kraken should not be louder than the Amp route.

Then try to figure out an amp model that would be closest to your Kraken. Since it's not modeled on Fractal, I'm guessing that maybe one of the Friedman or Bogner models might get you in the ballpark.

Now you can compare and try to figure out where it's going sideways for you.

It's the lack of clarity mainly. I use kraken in the loop so I can do this what you suggested. And I've done it. I compared it then to revv purple2. I've tried eq block and everything but I liked kraken more. And I use mainly kraken's first channel witch is very marshall like. I can't get that kinda clarity and 3d like sound of fm3. I can get decent tones, better than Leon in that video I mentioned, but...there is always something lacking. I call it clarity. Note separation.

 

[Ibanez_76]

Cabs are the answer, if you’re wanting that more immersive in the room experience. What you feed to that cab (amp, modeler etc.) is kind of irrelevant.

When I still had a combo blackstar loaded with 1x12" did not like fm3 in the loop any more than now, maybe even less. I understand it's not the same as mesa poweramp and 2x12 recto cab.

 

[kartikg3]

but...there is always something lacking. I call it clarity. Note separation.

I've always craved for this. And finally got it, with a real cab and volume. Low volumes, these just don't shine through

 

[Mongillo19]

I think OP has made up their mind everyone. Which is totally fine! Best of luck OP and I hope you find what you are looking for!

 

[kartikg3]

When I still had a combo blackstar loaded with 1x12" did not like fm3 in the loop any more than now, maybe even less. I understand it's not the same as mesa poweramp and 2x12 recto cab.

Hate to do this, but I would blame the Blackstar here to be honest. It may be colouring the tone.

 

[Ibanez_76]

So "roaring distortion"...through studio monitors?

Seems like a lost cause, I know...

 

[Ibanez_76]

Hate to do this, but I would blame the Blackstar here to be honest. It may be colouring the tone.

Might be. But when and if I get that preamp, I sell witchever I dont like. It may end up being that mesa. But I've have to find out. Too good a deal to miss. I dont mind buying second hand and selling what I dont like. Only thing I've bought new is that fm3 2 years ago.

 

[kartikg3]

Seems like a lost cause, I know...

Might be. But when and if I get that preamp, I sell witchever I dont like. It may end up being that mesa. But I've have to find out. Too good a deal to miss. I dont mind buying second hand and selling what I dont like. Only thing I've bought new is that fm3 2 years ago.

My 2 cents, through all this troubleshooting, no matter the result, please hold on to your FM3 (or equivallent digital modeler), because when push comes to shove, modelers have been the answer (at east for me, for boosted musical productivity, playing in a band, playing gigs, jamming, exploring, convenience etc. etc.) People usually find themselves reaching back to a digital solution for something or the other at some point (and vice versa, which is okay!)

 

[Mongillo19]

My 2 cents, through all this troubleshooting, no matter the result, please hold on to your FM3 (or equivallent digital modeler), because when push comes to shove, modelers have been the answer (at east for me, for boosted musical productivity, playing in a band, playing gigs, jamming, exploring, convenience etc. etc.) People usually find themselves reaching back to a digital solution for something or the other at some point (and vice versa, which is okay!)

I think they mentioned not having the financial fluidity to do this, unfortunately

 

[SKU]

Digital is ... like ... the worst. Not even kidding. Nothing beats plugging directly into a hard-hitting, punchy tube amp and guitar cab. And no! "FRFR" is not the same and for whatever reason be it impedance / level matching a digital preamp into a power amp ( even tube ) is not quite QUITE the same.

 

[laxu]

It's the lack of clarity mainly. I use kraken in the loop so I can do this what you suggested. And I've done it. I compared it then to revv purple2. I've tried eq block and everything but I liked kraken more. And I use mainly kraken's first channel witch is very marshall like. I can't get that kinda clarity and 3d like sound of fm3. I can get decent tones, better than Leon in that video I mentioned, but...there is always something lacking. I call it clarity. Note separation.

How are you setting your FM3 amp block master volumes? A lot of the amp models default to a pretty much cranked setting so you might find they turn to mush if you pile on a lot of gain.

There should be no lack of clarity or dimension to the sound.

For reference, I don't ever feel I need to use EQ blocks with my Fractal. Amp/Cab block settings alone are usually more than enough to get tones I like, regardless of genre.

 

[Mongillo19]

Digital is ... like ... the worst. Not even kidding. Nothing beats plugging directly into a hard-hitting, punchy tube amp and guitar cab. And no! "FRFR" is not the same and for whatever reason be it impedance / level matching a digital preamp into a power amp ( even tube ) is not quite QUITE the same.

You can certainly have this opinion but in context, OP isn't cranking it, isn't using a guitar cab, will not be using a tube power amp section (or even a simulated one perhaps). I think there is more in play here than tubez vs digital

 

[kartikg3]

Digital is ... like ... the worst. Not even kidding. Nothing beats plugging directly into a hard-hitting, punchy tube amp and guitar cab. And no! "FRFR" is not the same and for whatever reason be it impedance / level matching a digital preamp into a power amp ( even tube ) is not quite QUITE the same.

Had this opinion for years, until I plugged in my modeller into a SS poweramp+cab. Now I am free.