Are tubes the answer?

[Jarick]

I think using a smaller pair of monitors would go a long way.

The last couple weeks as I’ve been learning the HS8’s, my biggest issues are thin, boxy or scratchy guitar tones. They’re putting out a lot more frequencies than the 5’s and need to be turned up to a certain volume for all those frequencies to be audible, there’s a ton of low end information that gets cut off the quieter they go. I’d imagine the HS7’s aren’t that much of a difference. You can still HEAR the bass, but any feeling from it is gone and it’s almost like reading text instead of watching a video, just hits a different sensory point.

I’m curious if @Ibanez_76 has the chance to crank the 7’s up at any point to hear what things are sounding like when they’re a bit louder.

Did you just pick up a pair of HS8’s?

I read through this thread and swapped my HS8 out for the Genelec 8020s I still have and definitely noticed the tone getting more boxy. There's something with both the low end that is pumping due to the smaller woofer and enclosure along with a bump in the midrange right around the crossover point, where the HS8 seems to have more extended frequencies and a little dip in the mids maybe?

Put the HS8's back up today and they are nice at low volumes. WAY too big for my desk but hey the sound is pretty good. I do think you have to be aware of maybe a little too much high end with them though. Not enough to try and compensate with the HF switch, but maybe a little less presence or treble.

 

[ejecta]

Volume is the answer

And to that IMHO tubes, when loud for playing guitars, have a bit more pleasant playing experience. They react differently than solid state. But yes…. I agree wholeheartedly that volume is a huge factor.

 

[DrewJD82]

Did you just pick up a pair of HS8’s?

I read through this thread and swapped my HS8 out for the Genelec 8020s I still have and definitely noticed the tone getting more boxy. There's something with both the low end that is pumping due to the smaller woofer and enclosure along with a bump in the midrange right around the crossover point, where the HS8 seems to have more extended frequencies and a little dip in the mids maybe?

Put the HS8's back up today and they are nice at low volumes. WAY too big for my desk but hey the sound is pretty good. I do think you have to be aware of maybe a little too much high end with them though. Not enough to try and compensate with the HF switch, but maybe a little less presence or treble.

I did indeed. I’m currently getting over the “you REALLY should have done that sooner” aspect of it all that‘s coming with a learning curve of hearing all those frequencies and figuring out how to mix with them.

I was just saying the other day that I was considering putting some tissue paper over the tweeters because they’re REALLY bright, but after actually taking the time to understand and experiment with the Room Control and High switches, I think I got a comfortable spot.

The placement of them plays a big, big role. I wasn’t even thinking about that when I first brought them home and just put them on the HS5 desk stands-

I got my ears right between the tweeters and woofers, figured I’d be ok, but that all felt to crammed together, physically and sonically, so I got floor stands and was able to spread them out, that changed a LOT of things-

I’m no longer getting bombarded by everything at once and having them behind my monitor like they were was cutting off the sound spreading out. It’s crazy how sensitive these ares to placement, even with my room being extremely flat. I think I spent 30-40 minutes just angling them correctly towards me, then measuring with a tape measure to get equal distance between them and my ears.

With guitar tones specifically, there was so much low end I was missing out on with the HS5’s that don’t even enter the discussion simply because the HS5’s can’t produce those frequencies, so things like low end robbing from the top end doesn’t come into play. With the HS8’s you hear how all those relationships work out and it’s a whole learning curve of understanding that before plowing ahead with making killer tones, for me it is anyway.

I’m trying to track guitars for a song that’s drenched in synths, fast/slow sections and a kick drum pattern taking up the majority of the song, finding a guitar tone that does what I want while fitting in that mix has been brutal, but I’m pushing through it because I know I’ll learn something as a result.

 

[Ibanez_76]

I got better results when cranking the volume so that I could hear the strings acustically just barely if I hit them hard. Now I have to get used to this sound and find frequencies to cut and boost since it's all much brighter now

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I got better results when cranking the volume so that I could hear the strings acustically just barely if I hit them hard. Now I have to get used to this sound and find frequencies to cut and boost since it's all much brighter now

I would avoid boosting and just focus on cutting -- its way too easy to make things awful if you are both boosting and cutting. If its too bright, just using the ol' standard "put a low-pass/hi-cut filter somewhere from 3-6kHz" trick is almost always plenty.

 

[Jarick]

I did indeed. I’m currently getting over the “you REALLY should have done that sooner” aspect of it all that‘s coming with a learning curve of hearing all those frequencies and figuring out how to mix with them.

I was just saying the other day that I was considering putting some tissue paper over the tweeters because they’re REALLY bright, but after actually taking the time to understand and experiment with the Room Control and High switches, I think I got a comfortable spot.

The placement of them plays a big, big role. I wasn’t even thinking about that when I first brought them home and just put them on the HS5 desk stands-
View attachment 17147

I got my ears right between the tweeters and woofers, figured I’d be ok, but that all felt to crammed together, physically and sonically, so I got floor stands and was able to spread them out, that changed a LOT of things-

View attachment 17148

I’m no longer getting bombarded by everything at once and having them behind my monitor like they were was cutting off the sound spreading out. It’s crazy how sensitive these ares to placement, even with my room being extremely flat. I think I spent 30-40 minutes just angling them correctly towards me, then measuring with a tape measure to get equal distance between them and my ears.

With guitar tones specifically, there was so much low end I was missing out on with the HS5’s that don’t even enter the discussion simply because the HS5’s can’t produce those frequencies, so things like low end robbing from the top end doesn’t come into play. With the HS8’s you hear how all those relationships work out and it’s a whole learning curve of understanding that before plowing ahead with making killer tones, for me it is anyway.

I’m trying to track guitars for a song that’s drenched in synths, fast/slow sections and a kick drum pattern taking up the majority of the song, finding a guitar tone that does what I want while fitting in that mix has been brutal, but I’m pushing through it because I know I’ll learn something as a result.

Oh man you have a very similar path to me on these things! I also tried running them on the desk then moved over to stands. They sound pretty good though on my desk as it's wider and on isolation stands.

One of the things I saw with the HS8 compared to the 5 and 7 is that, not only is there low end extension, but the upper midrange and high end boost that you see/hear with HS5 is smoothed out. So they end up as being flatter in addition to having the extension.

 

[DrewJD82]

Oh man you have a very similar path to me on these things! I also tried running them on the desk then moved over to stands. They sound pretty good though on my desk as it's wider and on isolation stands.

One of the things I saw with the HS8 compared to the 5 and 7 is that, not only is there low end extension, but the upper midrange and high end boost that you see/hear with HS5 is smoothed out. So they end up as being flatter in addition to having the extension.

Yeah, I’d agree, however that ends up making sense.

I’ve really been trying to understand the differences between the 5’s and 8’s to figure out where the hell I’m going “wrong” with dialing in guitar tones. Drums I’m fine with, I bounced a rough mix down last week and the drums were 99% what I expected to hear, guitars were fucking terrible, which is what’s leading me to believe that the extended amount of information I’m catching in the 8’s now is working against the information I was able to hear in 5’s.

I thought of it like this- dialing in guitar tones on the 5’s was like sculpting Mt Rushmore out of a mountain of butter, except in this case, it was sculpting a guitar tone made out of nothing but mids/treble.

 

[Ibanez_76]

Yeah, I’d agree, however that ends up making sense.

I’ve really been trying to understand the differences between the 5’s and 8’s to figure out where the hell I’m going “wrong” with dialing in guitar tones. Drums I’m fine with, I bounced a rough mix down last week and the drums were 99% what I expected to hear, guitars were fucking terrible, which is what’s leading me to believe that the extended amount of information I’m catching in the 8’s now is working against the information I was able to hear in 5’s.

I thought of it like this- dialing in guitar tones on the 5’s was like sculpting Mt Rushmore out of a mountain of butter, except in this case, it was sculpting a guitar tone made out of nothing but mids/treble.

Thats about the same as in my case of hs7

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Yeah, I’d agree, however that ends up making sense.

I’ve really been trying to understand the differences between the 5’s and 8’s to figure out where the hell I’m going “wrong” with dialing in guitar tones. Drums I’m fine with, I bounced a rough mix down last week and the drums were 99% what I expected to hear, guitars were fucking terrible, which is what’s leading me to believe that the extended amount of information I’m catching in the 8’s now is working against the information I was able to hear in 5’s.

I thought of it like this- dialing in guitar tones on the 5’s was like sculpting Mt Rushmore out of a mountain of butter, except in this case, it was sculpting a guitar tone made out of nothing but mids/treble.

Do you not start off with a big-ass low cut on guitars to begin with? The first thing I put in most of my digital patches -- before any drive or amp or anything, is a steep low cut between 80 and 120 Hz...which should mean my guitar tones aren't getting anywhere close to the lower limit of 5" speakers, much less 7 or 8.

 

[AFKAEjay]

Do you not start off with a big-ass low cut on guitars to begin with? The first thing I put in most of my digital patches -- before any drive or amp or anything, is a steep low cut between 80 and 120 Hz...which should mean my guitar tones aren't getting anywhere close to the lower limit of 5" speakers, much less 7 or 8.

In my mind cutting those can be a mood killer when you play in your mancave at low lvl.
Are you sure 5” don’t produce these?…I’ve always been under the assumption that they do tbh.

 

[Stratzrus]

I think using a smaller pair of monitors would go a long way.

Speakers and their cabinets are the answer.

When I had a FM3 I ran it through a pair of Presonus 4.5s and had none of the problems described at low volumes. They definitely did not sound boxy.

At $149 a pair they're well worth auditioning.

If you don't like them you can return them.

 

[Mongillo19]

When I had a FM3 I ran it through a pair of Presonus 4.5s and had none of the problems described.

At $149 a pair they're well worth auditioning.

If you don't like them you can return them.

The Presonus line is excellent. I had to move my Adam A7Xs to the living room (where the FM9 resides) and use the Presonus in my studio with the III. They work very well and take up minimal area

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

In my mind cutting those can be a mood killer when you play in your mancave at low lvl.
Are you sure 5” don’t produce these?…I’ve always been under the assumption that they do tbh.

Yeah, 5” produce below 80 hz just fine - which is my point. By the time I put my 80 Hz cut in, I don’t see how the low end extension of a bigger speaker is going to change my guitar tone. I find the only mood sub-100Hz gives me with guitar is mud and clutter, even solo, but even more so in a mix.

 

[AFKAEjay]

Yeah, 5” produce below 80 hz just fine - which is my point. By the time I put my 80 Hz cut in, I don’t see how the low end extension of a bigger speaker is going to change my guitar tone. I find the only mood sub-100Hz gives me with guitar is mud and clutter, even solo, but even more so in a mix.

I Usually use a lowshelf instead of a cut…sometimes in a livesetting when it gets boomy I’ll reach for the “cut” as a bazooka to deal with it…but rather keep some of it there…depending on the setting offcourse. Playing bass/drums/git trio…I always think it adds to “the feel” if theres something left in the basement.

On speaker size…I switched from genelec 8010 to 8040…that is a different experience for sure. Idnk what does more…size of drivers or size of housing…but the low end is more pleasant for sure. More for full mixes then for guitar…but still.

 

[DrewJD82]

Do you not start off with a big-ass low cut on guitars to begin with? The first thing I put in most of my digital patches -- before any drive or amp or anything, is a steep low cut between 80 and 120 Hz...which should mean my guitar tones aren't getting anywhere close to the lower limit of 5" speakers, much less 7 or 8.

Actually no, not generally. Mainly because if I were mixing a guitar tone that came from an amp, I’d have to be cognizant of that 80hz range and knowing how to make it work in a mix. Sure, I could just cut it in the Fractal and make my life easier, but I want the education of learning how to mix a ‘normal’ guitar tone.

That’s probably a distinction I should have made earlier on, I can dial in a tone I dig playing with just fine, it’s getting them to work in a mix that I’m fleshing out now.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

@okewaja I do not attempt to apply any power amp modeling to the Synergy in the Axe Fx. My personal opinion is that the Synergy stuff sounds good direct. The OS module, in particular -- the clean channel on that thing is GLORIOUS and I would hate to try to add any kinda of compression or "feel" on top of it.

Honestly, I don't think I'd really have a lot of interest in using an analog front end if I was still having to throw in some digital-modeled compression behind it. Reverb/delay/speaker simulation...fine. But if the analog front end still needs digital help to feel/sound right in terms of dynamics, harmonics, distortion, etc.?...I'd probably just stay completely in the digital world

I avoided the Synergy stuff for a long time specifically because my feeling was "why would I get a tube preamp, when I have played modelers side-by-side with tube amps and don't find the tube amps to always be superior -- a tube preamp is 'just a preamp' where a digital model is capturing the preamp and power amp so, digital or not, should be better."

I think we do ourselves a disservice when we get hung up on this kind of spec-sheet, technical analysis of what should sound good or not rather than just using our ears. If you can't identify what the preamp sound on its own is lacking...how can you try to fix it in the axe fx?

This is with my Helix rather than FM3, but here is my comparison of the Synergy bassman module vs the digital bassman amp model:

BLIND COMPARO IS THE BESTO!!!!!!!!! EVEN WHEN THEY MAKE NO SENSE!! Helix vs Synergy

Clickbate audio file is at bottom, but this post will be mostly about how I'm integrating these two things. The Helix Rack/Control is the hub of my audio workstation/guitar rig at the moment. I have added a Synergy Syn1 loaded with the Synergy BMAN module, and its really fantastic in so many...

thegearforum.com

 

[Will Chen]

When I had a FM3 I ran it through a pair of Presonus 4.5s and had none of the problems described at low volumes. They definitely did not sound boxy.

At $149 a pair they're well worth auditioning.

If you don't like them you can return them.

These are great affordable speakers, I have the 4.5" as well. For just guitar they're great but if one is going to mix anything on them I'd advise the the matching Sub 8 as well as 4.5" alone just don't go down low enough to truly hear what's happening in the deep low end.

 

[the-trooper]

Tubes are never the answer.
Just say no!

 

[CakeEater]

I did indeed. I’m currently getting over the “you REALLY should have done that sooner” aspect of it all that‘s coming with a learning curve of hearing all those frequencies and figuring out how to mix with them.

I was just saying the other day that I was considering putting some tissue paper over the tweeters because they’re REALLY bright, but after actually taking the time to understand and experiment with the Room Control and High switches, I think I got a comfortable spot.

The placement of them plays a big, big role. I wasn’t even thinking about that when I first brought them home and just put them on the HS5 desk stands-
View attachment 17147

I got my ears right between the tweeters and woofers, figured I’d be ok, but that all felt to crammed together, physically and sonically, so I got floor stands and was able to spread them out, that changed a LOT of things-

View attachment 17148

I’m no longer getting bombarded by everything at once and having them behind my monitor like they were was cutting off the sound spreading out. It’s crazy how sensitive these ares to placement, even with my room being extremely flat. I think I spent 30-40 minutes just angling them correctly towards me, then measuring with a tape measure to get equal distance between them and my ears.

With guitar tones specifically, there was so much low end I was missing out on with the HS5’s that don’t even enter the discussion simply because the HS5’s can’t produce those frequencies, so things like low end robbing from the top end doesn’t come into play. With the HS8’s you hear how all those relationships work out and it’s a whole learning curve of understanding that before plowing ahead with making killer tones, for me it is anyway.

I’m trying to track guitars for a song that’s drenched in synths, fast/slow sections and a kick drum pattern taking up the majority of the song, finding a guitar tone that does what I want while fitting in that mix has been brutal, but I’m pushing through it because I know I’ll learn something as a result.

Oh man you have a very similar path to me on these things! I also tried running them on the desk then moved over to stands. They sound pretty good though on my desk as it's wider and on isolation stands.

One of the things I saw with the HS8 compared to the 5 and 7 is that, not only is there low end extension, but the upper midrange and high end boost that you see/hear with HS5 is smoothed out. So they end up as being flatter in addition to having the extension.

I'm really curious about this. I have HS7s and I'm thinking of replacing them with HS8s to have more body. Would that not be the case?

I know from experience that the HS7s have more high-end than the Dynacord AXM 12As I use live when at the same volume. But I like that because it keeps me cognizant of the high-end of how my tone will be more shrill when I turn up.

On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure which is the more accurate one. The Dynacord AXM 12As are great and have a lot of body. I don't think I can really replicate it with monitors, but I'd like to get as close as I can.

 

[Stratzrus]

[The Presonus Eris powered monitors] are great affordable speakers, I have the 4.5" as well. For just guitar they're great but if one is going to mix anything on them I'd advise the the matching Sub 8 as well as 4.5" alone just don't go down low enough to truly hear what's happening in the deep low end.

That makes sense. I use the 4.5s for guitar only (and casual use as computer monitors) but not for mixing.