Am I really going back to ITB with Helix???

I probably haven’t expressed myself clearly. I was not meaning F-M as in bedroom vs live. I was meaning that every delay repeat is less loud than the previous one, hence one perceives less high end even if the repeat is a perfect copy of the previous one.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but did you read what I said? Maybe I wasn't clear enough - the Helix delays (for example the Simple Delay model) suffer from a problem that other "straight up digital" delays do not.

And that problem is the cumulative softening of the transient attack, which affects down the delay sits in the mix.

If I'm comparing at the same volume settings, then Felcher Monsta isn't really relevant. Try it for yourself. You might be amazed!
 
Couldn’t that simply be more drive on the repeats compressing the signal?
Don't think so. So far as I know, there isn't any drive circuit built into the Simple Delay.

I could be wrong about what the cause is, but I definitely perceive a far more drastic fall-off and transient difference when using the Simple Delay on Helix than I do with any of my other digital delays.
 
I must be dumb or lacking caffeine this morning - but what the heck is ITB?
Beavis And Butthead 90S Tv GIF
 
Don't think so. So far as I know, there isn't any drive circuit built into the Simple Delay.

I could be wrong about what the cause is, but I definitely perceive a far more drastic fall-off and transient difference when using the Simple Delay on Helix than I do with any of my other digital delays.
It's due to using linear interpolation. Linear interpolation causes loss of transient response and "muddies" the signal when using regeneration.

Better methods are polyphase interpolation or polynomial interpolation but these techniques are much more processor intensive.
 
It's due to using linear interpolation. Linear interpolation causes loss of transient response and "muddies" the signal when using regeneration.

Better methods are polyphase interpolation or polynomial interpolation but these techniques are much more processor intensive.
ahhhhhhhhhhh, that's interesting! What about all-pass and spline ?? Is it feasible to write a delay algorithm that allows you to choose between different interpolation methods? I don't think I've ever seen that, even on desktop.
 
The Helix delays and reverbs do not cut through as well as some of the outboard you can get, and they certainly don't cut through as well as the Fractal ones do. I've denied this to myself for 6+ years because I really wanted to believe it... but I just can't.

Here's a bit of a scientific comparison - Take the bog standard Simple Delay on Helix. Set the mix to 50% and the feedback to 50%. Send a simple single note stacatto pluck through it. Count the number of echoes you get, and try to observe in your mind a visual line that tracks the loudness of each one of them.

Then do the same with a Boss DD-7 or DD-8 set to regular digital mode.

You'll notice that the Boss will have far more echoes, and will stay present and audible for much longer.

Okay.... so you think "it's just down to different weightings of the parameters.... maybe 70% on the Helix is equivalent to 50% on the Boss" ..... okay.... do that comparison.

You'll notice the Helix now has more echoes, but still not as many as the Boss. You'll also notice the transient of your pluck gets softer over time in a way that is not related to the drop in amplitube. It sounds more like diffusion is being applied in the feedback path to automatically soften the echoes the more you turn up the feedback.

And most of the digital delays on Helix do this. I can only suspect that the core digital delay circuit they are using has this element built into it and that removing it would break everyone's presets, which is why they haven't done it.

I also think a lot of the legacy delays sound better on the DL-4 MKI than they do on Helix and the M-series effects.


I've had similar observations with the reverbs. But for me the long and short of it is..... I keep finding myself unhappy with the Helix delays and reverbs whenever I use them. I'll be happy for a week or two, maybe a month... but then I compare them to Fractal, Source Audio, Boss, and my Hardwire pedals... and always I feel like there is something lacking.

For the last 6 years I've been using Helix as my primary effects platform for both studio and stage work. And 90% of the reasoning behind that is purely about workflow. The sonics always felt like a sacrifice.

I recall a time where I didn't take my Helix to a gig. I did the gig with my Boss DD-500 (which has problems of its own btw!) and every single person in my band remarked at how much fuller and "epic" my guitar sounded - even the drummer!!

Feels like I'm hating on my grandma right now, coz I've always been a loudmouth proponent of the Helix, but it's time to stop lying to myself. I'm super not happy with it!!

A couple of things come to mind. First, I wouldn’t make blanket statements about the reverbs and delays in helix, the various models are all pretty different. Second, simple delay is something I’d only use for basic signal delaying (like no feedback, just delaying the whole thing). It’s not something I’d use when I want typical delay stuff.

As for reverbs and delays cutting through in a mix, sometimes I want them to and sometimes I don’t. I generally find the trails of the helix delays to do what they’re supposed to, which changes a lot depending on which model you’re using. I’m a fan of l6 delay models, I’ve long preferred them to the fractal ones although I haven’t had a modern fractal unit since Cliff improved that recently,

Dialing in the Helix reverbs seems to work best with something I love to A/B against. I often end up with settings that are kinda unconventional to get what I’m looking for, might have been hard to arrive there without something to A/B with. To get the outboard spring sound close to what I wanted, I had to run it 100% wet in parallel with an eq in front of it dumping a ton of lows and low mids and subtle boosts and cuts of high mids and highs. It does sit better in the mix as a result - this is one of those sounds I don’t want to blend in too much I want you to hear it. I don’t have to do that kind of thing to get what I want with the dynamic hall though. That doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with the spring model, it just isn’t what my ear is looking for.

I did consider going to an FM9 for a minute, but I’m so hooked on snapshots for live use that there’s no going back now. The helix is a tool for me, and it does it’s job beautifully for live work.

D
 
Dialing in the Helix reverbs seems to work best with something I love to A/B against. I often end up with settings that are kinda unconventional to get what I’m looking for, might have been hard to arrive there without something to A/B with. To get the outboard spring sound close to what I wanted, I had to run it 100% wet in parallel with an eq in front of it dumping a ton of lows and low mids and subtle boosts and cuts of high mids and highs. It does sit better in the mix as a result - this is one of those sounds I don’t want to blend in too much I want you to hear it. I don’t have to do that kind of thing to get what I want with the dynamic hall though. That doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with the spring model, it just isn’t what my ear is looking for.
I get you, truly I do. Every patch I use has a parallel path. Like this:

1671389434951.png


I don't hate it at all, despite my hyperbole. I just aint enjoying it as I did 6 years ago. Time for a change for me.
 
Oh and I'd add, I had an Axe II once upon time. Reverbs were cool, but I could never get the delay sound I wanted. That isn't an issue on the Axe III anymore. They're capable of much more squishy "analog-y" sounds now.

Honestly I'm such a slag that I'd take a Axe III + Helix hybrid!
 
Also I'm the guy who did the 2hour video of the Ventris, I definitely know the temptation you're facing! :sofa

Ah, you’re a legend! I’ll quit explaining the differences in helix reverb and delay models to you now haha.

We’ll see if this new direction stays the course. I stayed in the box for a long time, then added a small board that fit in the big pocket on the helix backpack, then moved to a normal sized external board with a separate case. This all started because I had an FM3 which reminded me how much I missed those fractal reverbs. The FM3 wasn’t really my thing, but I did want better reverbs after that. Enter the Ventris, and now I’m pretty happy with the dynamic hall in the helix which is mostly what I use.

I couldn’t get happy with the older fractal delays either, been curious to revisit them since he overhauled them.

Having an Axe3 with a Helix has crossed my mind, then I’d have the power of the 3 plus the Helix’s snapshots and ease of programming. I don’t think I’ll really do it, but I have thought about it…

D
 
I need to spend more time with the axe 3 reverbs. The dynamic hall is exciting for sure and I don’t get the same instant gratification with the axe but I’m sure it’s due to settings and not capability.

I love the vintage delay in helix and would probably get a standalone pedal version if available. Sounds great. Nice modulation too.

In the axe I really like the stereo tape delay and increase the modulation. Perfect little roll off and warmth.

I also really like the Adriatic delay because it’s a modded dm2 with modulation and that’s about the perfect analog delay tone.
 
Really like the Adriatic delay.

Arghhh.... I'm totally questioning myself now! haha. See what I mean, I'm a slag!
 
I need to spend more time with the axe 3 reverbs. The dynamic hall is exciting for sure and I don’t get the same instant gratification with the axe but I’m sure it’s due to settings and not capability.

I love the vintage delay in helix and would probably get a standalone pedal version if available. Sounds great. Nice modulation too.

In the axe I really like the stereo tape delay and increase the modulation. Perfect little roll off and warmth.

I also really like the Adriatic delay because it’s a modded dm2 with modulation and that’s about the perfect analog delay tone.

I love the Transistor Tape delay in the Helix, really the only thing I miss now, having the FM9.
 
I love the Transistor Tape delay in the Helix, really the only thing I miss now, having the FM9.
Genuinely better than the tape delays on the Boss DD500 IMHO.

Actually whilst I'm slagging off the DD500... crap things about it:
- The analog models are a bit 'meh'
- The saturation/drive characteristics of the models are all universally crap.
- The DAC clips extremely easily, and it sounds like nasty hard clipping, not soft clipping - oscillations on the DD500 always sound wank unless you do some clever balancing work with the EQ in the feedback path, or put a compressor in the loop using the second input and output.
- The biggest issue.... and I can't believe they missed this.... putting the unit into a/b series mode.... DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE SAME DELAY TIMES THAT PUTTING TWO DELAYS IN SERIES WOULD NORMALLY GIVE YOU.
 
Looks like we’re all on the same page here for delays. Transistor tape, vintage digital, elephant man, and Adriatic are some of my faves. Mod chorus echo is really useful too as a low dsp option that is really versatile.

D
 
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