With tools like the VP4 and HX Effects, why have there been no modern advancements in 4CM cabling tech?

[HomespunEffects]

Yep, I definitely came across like an asshole last night! I'm afraid I had a few too many Dark & Spookies and the let the snark get away from me. I apologize, sincerely. @HomespunEffects

What? No challenge to meet in the parking lot? This place is lame.

But thanks.

 

[paisleywookiee]

What? No challenge to meet in the parking lot? This place is lame.

But thanks.

This is the ONLY site where people have actually acknowledged and apologized for their behavior, having a bad day, etc. I think that's a great thing, really. We're all human.

 

[HomespunEffects]

This is the ONLY site where people have actually acknowledged and apologized for their behavior, having a bad day, etc. I think that's a great thing, really. We're all human.

There’s another with civil people. But it’s a different topic, not music related.

I was also having a bad day up there and i also apologize for getting all butt-hurt.

 

[Shredder777]

My solution has always been three 1/4 in cables zip tied together every 18" or so. Then a second version of that as a back up. Leave the ends with enough cable to plug in and go. Easier to manage IMHO, than a loom.

If a cable fails, cut the zip ties and replace. I like the idea of the snake, but if you have an internal connection failure, it's more expensive to replace.

Having a break out box makes sense in a rack. If you don't have a rack it's another thing to think about and worry about.

I had done that once, but the zip ties, if you cut away the excess, are actually quite sharp and difficult to handle!

A better way to do this is with velcro wraps. They cost a little more, but aren't sharp and they can be reversed.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I had done that once, but the zip ties, if you cut away the excess, are actually quite sharp and difficult to handle!

A better way to do this is with velcro wraps. They cost a little more, but aren't sharp and they can be reversed.

Poking your finger with a sharp edged ziptie is actually super painful

 

[Shredder777]

Poking your finger with a sharp edged ziptie is actually super painful

I think the conclusion I came to was it was stupid to make your own snake with zip ties, just better to just buy an actual snake and not use 4 of the connections. Just duct tape them out of the way.

 

[sleewell]

View attachment 32305

I use one of these. It is small, and means I don't need lifted cables.

Humbuster cables (TRS>TS cables really) don't solve the problem by itself. I have to use one of these as well. It works fine, costs pittance, and really isn't a huge overhead to deal with.

thanks for posting this. where do you place it in the chain?

 

[TubeStack]

(Still using zip ties... have just learned how to wrap them and not get hurt.)

 

[Orvillain]

thanks for posting this. where do you place it in the chain?

Before the input to the guitar amp, or the Axe3 out to the amp FX return.

 

[EOengineer]

The biggest demon I’m fighting right now in the 4cm paradigm is latency. We rehearse silently and even though we’re using a lightning fast quantum thunderbolt interface for monitoring out of the box, multiple stages of conversion for the pre loop + post loop + monitoring converter add up and things start to feel loosey goosey.

That pretty makes going wireless on the guitar side or the monitor side almost impossible.

I try to stick with a single conversion stage if I can - which usually means full modeling OR full analog.

I imagine the audio over network option adds even more latency.

 

[hippietim]

Is there a low latency Bluetooth solution?

I don't think you're even allowed to use low latency and Bluetooth in the same sentence.

 

[hippietim]

"Sluggish and unreliable"? In what way? I've got no issues with CarPlay at all, and no issues with Bluetooth in general these days, whether it's iPhone to BT speaker, PowerBeats to iPhone, mouse to laptop or desktop, off-brand headphones to Amazon FireStick, PowerBeats to Windows machine, etc. UAFX aren't at all my favorites, having had a couple. But I wouldn't use them as the gold standard for BT connectivity.

Latency, my friend. Most consumer BT stuff is 100-150ms. The lowest latency Bluetooth audio is 20ms. That's a lot. Add some pitch shifting, a wireless, and a few conversions and it's a whole lot. Not to mention it uses lossy compression.

 

[hippietim]

The biggest demon I’m fighting right now in the 4cm paradigm is latency. We rehearse silently and even though we’re using a lightning fast quantum thunderbolt interface for monitoring out of the box, multiple stages of conversion for the pre loop + post loop + monitoring converter add up and things start to feel loosey goosey.

That pretty makes going wireless on the guitar side or the monitor side almost impossible.

I try to stick with a single conversion stage if I can - which usually means full modeling OR full analog.

I imagine the audio over network option adds even more latency.

What products are you using for your guitar rig?

 

[paisleywookiee]

Latency, my friend. Most consumer BT stuff is 100-150ms. The lowest latency Bluetooth audio is 20ms. That's a lot. Add some pitch shifting, a wireless, and a few conversions and it's a whole lot. Not to mention it uses lossy compression.

That’s not remotely what I was referring to. Two months ago.

 

[Mikael Dez]

The biggest demon I’m fighting right now in the 4cm paradigm is latency. We rehearse silently and even though we’re using a lightning fast quantum thunderbolt interface for monitoring out of the box, multiple stages of conversion for the pre loop + post loop + monitoring converter add up and things start to feel loosey goosey.

That pretty makes going wireless on the guitar side or the monitor side almost impossible.

I try to stick with a single conversion stage if I can - which usually means full modeling OR full analog.

I imagine the audio over network option adds even more latency.

This is kind of the biggest reason (aside from UI) why I swapped from a Tonex+HX Stomp rig to a Quad Cortex - just one conversion, everything's in the box. Having two multi fx pedals with one of them in the loop comes out to 5 conversions.

 

[Desertdweller]

I’ve run simple and complex 4CM systems for a long time and have never experienced any noticeable latency. I have a couple pieces of music I play that have timed delays that I have to hit just right to stay on time and it’s never been a concern. I have some really fasts at 210ish bpm and have no problem tracking fast guitar lines even into a PC with a 64 or 128 buffer with my 4CM rig fully engaged. So I’m really not understanding the latency argument. It’s fiction IMO, or at the very least a non-concern and I think if 4CM latency is a problem for you, it’s in your head. It doesn’t seem to effect any number of touring musicians who use 4CM effects and in-ear monitors.

 

[Shredder777]

The biggest demon I’m fighting right now in the 4cm paradigm is latency. We rehearse silently and even though we’re using a lightning fast quantum thunderbolt interface for monitoring out of the box, multiple stages of conversion for the pre loop + post loop + monitoring converter add up and things start to feel loosey goosey.

That pretty makes going wireless on the guitar side or the monitor side almost impossible.

I try to stick with a single conversion stage if I can - which usually means full modeling OR full analog.

I imagine the audio over network option adds even more latency.

The original Quantum Thunderbolt is so fast because it doesn't have real time monitoring. So you are running through two rounds of conversion, even though fast. So you are adding probably around 2-3ms if using it for real time monitoring, on top of what your external signal chain already has. Monitoring should be below 4ms to not feel it, so that typically means two rounds of conversion (if helix or better), so just the io, loop, and analog effects. If you have a strymon effect in the loop of a helix that is 2+1+2, plus another 2-3 from your interface, you are already at 7-8ms. If you have a couple more strymon effects, or you are using something with more latency like an FM3/9, then you are already at 10ms.

If you got an interface like an RME or new Quantum that has real time monitoring (any interface that isn't a TB quantum), it would sound more immediate at the inputs.

I know you can do math, but with a better interface you would chop off at least 2ms.

In my 4cm setup, the processor has 2+2ms latency (io+loop), which I use only with analog effects. I feed that to a Quantum HD8 for real time monitoring, so it is around 4ms. I would never buy a standalone digital FX pedal for this reason. Or a mfx that has more than 2ms per loop.

 

[hippietim]

You have to be going trough quite a few hops to have latency issues worth noting. Using a polyphonic pitch shifter is a great way to introduce a lot of latency.

 

[DrewJD82]

Poking your finger with a sharp edged ziptie is actually super painful

Slicing your finger(s) open on the damn things sucks a lot, too! I was trying to pull one tight when wiring up my FC-6 board, not realizing it was already as snug as it was going to get, gave it a good yank and the bastard turned into a finger saw.

We have the giant zip ties at work for hurricanes and keeping dumpster doors closed, I turned into a hellicopter parent with my staff, “Watch your fingers guys, these can really do some damage!”

 

[JiveTurkey]

I hate that!