spawnofthesith
Shredder
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We are a simulation, tone comes from the matrix
Uncle Larry speaks the truth!!
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I raised this question on another forum and it didn’t get a single reply-
I‘m curious if there’s a correlation between the people who don’t believe tone is in the fingers and the people who are constantly flipping gear trying to find the “perfect“ whatever.
If you’re on the side of ”Tone is not in the fingers”, how much gear have you flipped and are you content with what you currently have?
Same question goes for the “Tone is in the fingers” guys, how much have you flipped and are you currently content.
My own answer, I’m a tone is in the fingers guy, I’ve only sold 2 guitars in my entire life and my amp flipping was just going between the same two amps back and forth, for the most part. I’m quite content with the tones I get these days.
I‘m curious if there’s a correlation between the people who don’t believe tone is in the fingers and the people who are constantly flipping gear trying to find the “perfect“ whatever.
If you’re on the side of ”Tone is not in the fingers”, how much gear have you flipped and are you content with what you currently have?
Same question goes for the “Tone is in the fingers” guys, how much have you flipped and are you currently content.
My own answer, I’m a tone is in the fingers guy, I’ve only sold 2 guitars in my entire life and my amp flipping was just going between the same two amps back and forth, for the most part. I’m quite content with the tones I get these days.
TSJMajesty
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I'm in this camp, I have changed to a different guitar only twice in 43 years, switched from Marshall to Mesa once over the course of ~37 years, and am highly content with the gear I have.
But..., my definition of tone is how the guitar sounds through its amplification. I can't make any guitar sound like Jeff Beck, but in my definition, that's technique. If he played through my rig, he'd still sound like him, but he'd have my tone.
In fact, it's the definition that I think causes the disagreement. It isn't Dweezil's fingers that make his video of Eruption sound like EVH's tone. But his fingers do make it sound like EVH's way of playing. I just don't call that "tone."
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That as clear of a distinction among the contributing things that makes for a rational discussion. I ate some of those Apple Jacks and I dunno if that first sentence makes sense or not but it took me a few seconds to think of it.
jay mitchell
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This is not an either/or issue. FYI, when I say "tone," I'm talking about the frequency content - which includes dynamics (attack/decay) - of your sound. It is absolutely true that a large portion of your tone comes from how you play the instrument. Two different guitarists playing the exact same licks on the same rig - including instrument, amplification, and signal processing - with identical settings will produce different tones (see the above definition). It is also absolutely true that your entire rig and how you set it has a large influence on your tone.
Bottom line: both factors affect tone. Neither alone is responsible for tone. Arguments on either side are contrived and absurd. Given the choice between improving my playing or improving my gear, I will always choose playing. I don't flip anything. I've owned one guitar for 47 years and another for 45. I built my Strat about 15 years ago. I still play through the Axe-Fx I bought in 2007. The tube amps I own were bought in 2007 as well.
Bottom line: both factors affect tone. Neither alone is responsible for tone. Arguments on either side are contrived and absurd. Given the choice between improving my playing or improving my gear, I will always choose playing. I don't flip anything. I've owned one guitar for 47 years and another for 45. I built my Strat about 15 years ago. I still play through the Axe-Fx I bought in 2007. The tube amps I own were bought in 2007 as well.
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Bruce
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I dont consider dynamics, feel or articulation to be tone because I enjoy discussing those things on their own merits, as I enjoy discussing tone on its own merit. Tone to me is harmonic content including frequency and overtones. These things are minimally affected by how you play in comparison to how you can affect it through your gear. For instance, if we all sat down with the same Strat, one after the other, fretted a B note thru channel 2 of a triple rec and a 4x12 oversized cab miced with a 57 and a 201 thru an Apollo pre and recorded the result, 10 different players will get pretty much the same tone. Some will get more or less amplitude, some will get more or less dynamic but the tone will be little changed from finger to finger. Now do the same thing and change the treble and presence knobs from 5 to 10 and record that result. It will be very different from all the others. Move a mic 1/2 an inch. Vastly different. Change from bridge to neck pickup. Vastly different. Use someone else’s finger and leave everything else the same? Little to no difference.
TSJMajesty
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Couldn't agree more.
Your fingers can get a pinch harmonic, for example, but you need the right gear to really bring it out.
My fingers can change the tone, when I rotate knobs. 
I can make quite a few different sounds in your example, even if you limit me to one pickup selection. Where I pluck the string, at what angle, with what material, and what force, and what other things on the guitar I touch or do/don’t let ring out will change things a lot. You can make a lot of different sounds with that one rig and one note. Now combine all those possibilities with a lot of variation across a song passage, and you start to see just how much of this is in our hands.
D
I think it’s far more the player than the gear. I don’t flip much, rarely ever. When I do, it’s because I’m missing a capability in the gear or I have too much similar stuff. For example, I’ve bought like 3-4 mega reverb pedals st the same time to compare them and decide which one I liked best and ditch the rest. If I buy something because I like it and want it in my rig, it rarely ever goes away.
The only things I can think of that I let go are some really big, heavy amps that I just didn’t want to lug around anymore as most gigs didn’t need that much volume or power anymore. And, I regret everyone of those gear decisions, I’d take every last one of those amps back right now if I could…
Guitars, I only get rid of if they have a real problem for me, like a rubberneck that I’m not interested in fixing. Earlier in life I let a few go because I needed money, not anymore.
D
jay mitchell
Roadie
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Whether or not you "consider" them to be tone, they are. That's because those things all affect the frequency content of your sound. FYI, amps and signal processing also affect those things, and those effects are also part of your tone.
You apparently do not understand that this description includes attack and decay.
Your argument is based on an incorrect premise.
Edit: Do you not believe that a compressor affects your tone? That's a device that specifically affects dynamic range. Pro tip: it affects "frequency and overtones."
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Bruce
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I understand plenty. I’m understanding enough to realize there are many definitions of the word tone, none being righter than the other which is why this discussion is kind of pointless. Well, it’s pointless unless the goal is to browbeat you’re right and I’m wrong. In that case, you can be right today.
You just won the internet.
How’s it feel?
Here’s how I choose to view and discuss tone. From the Encyclopedia Britannica under science/physics/matter and energy:
tone, in acoustics, sound that can be recognized by its regularity of vibration. A simple tone has only one frequency, although its intensity may vary. A complex tone consists of two or more simple tones, called overtones. The tone of lowest frequency is called the fundamental; the others, overtones. The frequencies of the overtones may be whole multiples (e.g., 2, 3, 4, etc., of the fundamental frequency, in which case they are called the second, third, fourth, etc., harmonics of the fundamental tone, itself known as the first harmonic). A combination of harmonic tones is pleasant to hear and is therefore called a musical tone.
For me, this is where the definition ends. I do not include dynamics, articulation or any other musical quality when I discuss tone because as I said, I prefer to discuss those things separately as they deserve attention on their own.
You can think I’m wrong for this. It’s ok.
Bruce
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I’ve actually sat down and tried this after it was argued on the last thread here.
Maybe it’s just me, but repeatedly picking a note starting at the bridge pickup and ending at the neck resulted in a negligible change in tone in comparison to what I can do with any other mechanical method of changing tone on the signal chain used. It changed, just nowhere near what a tone knob does.
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IMO, pitch, dynamics etc are in the fingers which effect perception of tone. The tone or quality of the produced tone is set by the build of the instruments. Some give the player more control over it though.
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What did you use to adjust the tone knob?
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jay mitchell
Roadie
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Have you ever actually tried such an exercise? My money says you haven't and further that you'd be very surprised if you did.
jay mitchell
Roadie
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No. You got that wrong too. No instrument produces only one frequency when you play a note.
You don't know what you don't know. At the instant you introduce a consideration of overtones, you also introduce transients. In case this is still not getting through, transient signals are the time-domain effect of overtones.
FYI, I don't "think" you're wrong. I know you''re wrong. You don't understand the relationship between the frequency domain and the time domain. There's math involved, so you may not want to go any further....
