Uncle Larry speaks the truth!!

[TSJMajesty]

It was literally his third word in the Bolded text.

Oops, I'm sorry. I re-read just the main message he wrote.

Ok, he has a different definition of tone than I do.

 

[TSJMajesty]

And believe me, I GET how important all the little nuances are when playing guitar, and how they impact how you sound. Just running a sextuplet riff, where it isn't 3 notes on each string... if you want it to sound like actual triplets, you need to accent, even if it's very subtly, every 3rd note. Which is much easier to do when it's 3 notes on each string.

But to play that same riff, and give it a 16th-note "feel", as in, your brain hears 4 notes at a time, while the beat is every 6, takes some serious finesse and practice.

And one player makes that sextuplet sound slightly different, because he picks only the first note, hammers-on the next 2, then picks the next 3. (Paul Gilbert) It's going to sound different than if all 6 notes were picked. (John Petrucci) But again, to me, that's not tone.

 

[Gearzilla]

a different definition of tone

This is typically the nature of the divergence within this topic when it comes to guitar forums.

 

[TSJMajesty]

And I've said it before (and even though I got sucked into it- I had a couple glasses of wine leftover from New Years- sorry), as I'm somewhat amazed as this forum is only just about 5 months old, and we're already repeating arguments..., until we can all agree on a good definition of the word "tone," especially in this context, the whole conversation is kinda pointless. Which is why I try to temper my comments with what I believe tone to be.

 

[Fireproof]

This is typically the nature of this topic when it comes to guitar forums.

And why I typically don’t participate in these discussions. It’s not a big enough deal (to me) to make sure everyone defines tone the same. People define it differently - that’s fine. And I don’t really care to explain how I define it to others.

LOL. Carry on!

 

[TSJMajesty]

This is typically the nature of the divergence within this topic when it comes to guitar forums.

Absolutely. We were typing at the same time. Lol

 

[Gearzilla]

And I've said it before (and even though I got sucked into it- I had a couple glasses of wine leftover from New Years- sorry), as I'm somewhat amazed as this forum is only just about 5 months old, and we're already repeating arguments..., until we can all agree on a good definition of the word "tone," especially in this context, the whole conversation is kinda pointless. Which is why I try to temper my comments with what I believe tone to be.

This thread is really a continuation of the one that’s already in the inferno. I just thought it was a great opportunity to work in some Batman gifs. I think most people already understand what everyone means.

 

[TSJMajesty]

And why I typically don’t participate in these discussions. It’s not a big enough deal (to me) to make sure everyone defines tone the same. People define it differently - that’s fine. And I don’t really care to explain how I define it to others.

LOL. Carry on!

Yeah, I can understand your stance on it, but in the context of a GEAR FORUM, there's probably thousands of references to the word 'tone' in conversations about amps and guitars and pedals.

People start countless threads about swapping PU's because they don't like how they sound. But if tone is so much in your fingers, then why bother?

Or why buy so many different guitars? Or amps? I can't understand why these topics gererate so much talk, if "tone" is 80 or 90% in your fingers! Seems to me if that were true, we'd be having a LOT more conversations about, "What can I do differently in my playing to sound like _____?"

 

[Bruce]

Another way of looking at this:

If tone were really in the fingers with what y’all spend on amps and guitars, it’d be a bargain to head over to the plastic surgeon to fine tune your fingertips for that all elusive tone in your head everyone has spent 5 (or in my case, more) figures of money chasing.

How about implants like chicks get rubber tits? Custom fingertip implants right under the skin to further manipulate how your guitar sounds. For god sakes you can practically buy guitar picks made out of monkey balls, this would be the next logical step.

Either I just created a new discipline in plastic surgery or tone isn’t nearly as much in the fingers as some folks think.

 

[Bruce]

And why I typically don’t participate in these discussions. It’s not a big enough deal (to me) to make sure everyone defines tone the same. People define it differently - that’s fine. And I don’t really care to explain how I define it to others.

LOL. Carry on!

I’ve recently gotten rid of nearly all my social media. It was more a me problem. I don’t have the personality type to NOT get drawn into long, drawn out discussions about nearly anything. It’s one of many character flaws I have. I admit it freely.

 

[jellodog]

I’ve recently gotten rid of nearly all my social media. [...] I don’t have the personality type to NOT get drawn into long, drawn out discussions about nearly anything.

Wait. When did I type that? Am I Bruce?

 

[Bruce]

Wait. When did I type that? Am I Bruce?

Seriously. I check in here and maybe 2 or 3 other forums a day now. Maybe it takes an hour total. Facebook alone I used to be good for 3 hours a day or more on. Instagram too. It’s way addicting and wasn’t affecting my life positively. I cut it off like cancer. It was tough in the beginning but I’m so much better off for it now.

 

[jellodog]

Seriously. I check in here and maybe 2 or 3 other forums a day now. Maybe it takes an hour total. Facebook alone I used to be good for 3 hours a day or more on. Instagram too. It’s way addicting and wasn’t affecting my life positively. I cut it off like cancer. It was tough in the beginning but I’m so much better off for it now.

Oh for real. I hear you loud and clear. I just like messing with a little reality distortion now and again for fun and entertainment. I hope you don't mind

Whilst I am a member of some guitar gear forums, I have never had Facebook or Instagram accounts, and I quit Twitter about 5 years ago. At that time, when I left Twitter, I stated that it was "a toxic cesspool"... which is kinda funny (but not funny), because I believe that it's many times worse these days.

Apart from all the usual reasons stated to avoid Facebook, I think it's ripe old database for identity theft too.

 

[Fireproof]

Seriously. I check in here and maybe 2 or 3 other forums a day now. Maybe it takes an hour total. Facebook alone I used to be good for 3 hours a day or more on. Instagram too. It’s way addicting and wasn’t affecting my life positively. I cut it off like cancer. It was tough in the beginning but I’m so much better off for it now.

That level of self awareness doesn’t seem to be that common these days. Good job!

 

[Eagle]

I see it all the time with customers .

It's an extended feedback loop that goes back to the first time you tried to fret a note . The loop is your ear to your fingers and when you start playing all it can do is just about get the note to play but as you progress everything is an extension of it. Every nuance is you doing something listening and adjusting to make it sound better over time this is a huge deal. The number or times I have to politely tell people their guitar is not the problem it is in fact them is interesting.


As a tech I could set a guitar up not to buzz with bad technique but I wouldn't be doing them any favours. I prefer to suggest they start with a guitar optimised for most players and get then to live in that world until they develop their own opinion about where it is they want to go . Then I can help them along their way by suggesting different setups that suit players in that vein.


The eternal 'it buzzes can you lower the action please" should mostly be answered by; The action is optimum for the geometry and string gauge you use and the frets/ relief are correct , anyone can make a guitar buzz if you try hard enough.


The up side is I have sat and chatted to quite a few A list players about gear and their setup. I have always collected the information on any famous guitar I see to put it in perspective when I listen to the music . The most famous being the Woodstock Strat. You get a huge extra insight to the player when you know exactly what they were up against.

The whole thing is a fascinating subject and I am happy to say as a tech that the difference I can make between a correctly functioning instrument and the best guitar in the world to a world class player is irrelevant to the sound for the listener.

My best player/customers go to huge expense chasing that last 1% though.

 

[DrewJD82]

I believe tone is mostly in the hands and I don’t see gear flipping as contradictory to someone like myself who says tone is in the fingers because gear flipping isn’t singular in cause. Personally I like trying “new toys” just becuase im curious for multiples of reasons, so really I wasn’t chasing tone per se but that I like fiddling with gadgets. I’m sure if thought harder I could find other reasons outside “tone” but I’m being lazy. Even Buk today said in his video that he’s bought a lot of gear in the past due to boredom. I can relate.

From what I’ve seen there’s a lot of variables in the gear flipping scenario that have nothing to do with tone chasing.

For sure, I’ve bought a sh*tload of gear in the last year and I was already content with the tones I generally used. The whole more is more thing and I just like gear. But we’re only (maybe PBGas as well) 2-3 of the sample size here.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I dont consider dynamics, feel or articulation to be tone because I enjoy discussing those things on their own merits, as I enjoy discussing tone on its own merit. Tone to me is harmonic content including frequency and overtones. These things are minimally affected by how you play in comparison to how you can affect it through your gear. For instance, if we all sat down with the same Strat, one after the other, fretted a B note thru channel 2 of a triple rec and a 4x12 oversized cab miced with a 57 and a 201 thru an Apollo pre and recorded the result, 10 different players will get pretty much the same tone. Some will get more or less amplitude, some will get more or less dynamic but the tone will be little changed from finger to finger. Now do the same thing and change the treble and presence knobs from 5 to 10 and record that result. It will be very different from all the others. Move a mic 1/2 an inch. Vastly different. Change from bridge to neck pickup. Vastly different. Use someone else’s finger and leave everything else the same? Little to no difference.

Move a pick 1/2" vastly different. Change pick angle a few degrees fairly different, etc., Etc. Etc. Even using your hyper narrow definition of tone.

 

[Stratzrus]

At least for chasing gear...the only reason you want to get the same guitar/amp/effects as your heroes is because of the great songs they wrote and their playing.

I don't buy gear based on a desire to sound like someone else. All of my gear purchases in the last decade have been to increase functionality.

I use Fractal gear because it's the best solution for me regarding practicing, recording, and an all in one box multieffects unit to use with my tube amp when playing live.

I use a George Benson Hot Rod Deluxe, not to sound like George Benson but because the 12at7 preamp tube gives me more clean headroom and the pine cab is lighter than my previous HRD. I use a HRD because it's reasonably priced, has a very good clean tone, is a great platform for pedals, is easy to carry, and has an effects loop that lets me do the 4CM. I was gigging a HRD before the Benson version came out.

I have a couple of Fryette stacks because I like to totally rock out on occasion and I really like their voice which does not have the elements of Marshall tone or Mesa tone that I don't like and keeps me from using them as my go to Rock amps.

But chasing tone, either someone else's or one in my head, is not a fixation of mine. I now have the gear I want. I'm not chasing tone or on an endless gear hunt for the latest and greatest thing. I have no FOMO regarding new gear or new firmware releases.

So why to I still hang out on gear forums every day? Because I learn things here. I find out about products that are very useful and make my playing experience more enjoyable. Things like the Power Station PS-100. The American Elite series Strat and Tele whose necks I love and now have on my two partscasters. Two new guitar straps that I love. Curt Magnan strings, and the list goes on...

I do have some great gear and enjoy playing it. The tones are better than I could have imagined when I started playing in the sixties. But back on topic, yes the fingers are the largest factor regarding tone but the gear can help or hinder you achieving your tonal goals. No piece of gear is more helpful to your playing than years of practicing and gigging but it sure is nice when you plug into something and it makes you grin ear to ear.

 

[Stratzrus]

Not amps and cabs but one example of the "tone is in the fingers" thing is two of my favorite Telecaster players, Danny Gatton and Bill Frisell.

Listening to these two helped me realize how diverse the tones are that you can get from a Tele and hearing Frisell made me realize I could use a Tele for Jazz, something I had never considered. Of course when I play my Tele it sounds different than either of them but with both of these players the fingers are a major component, if not the major component, in the tone.

 

[Eagle]

Not amps and cabs but one example of the "tone is in the fingers" thing is two of my favorite Telecaster players, Danny Gatton and Bill Frisell.

Listening to these two helped me realize how diverse the tones are that you can get from a Tele and hearing Frisell made me realize I could use a Tele for Jazz, something I had never considered. Of course when I play my Tele it sounds different than either of them but with both of these players the fingers are a major component, if not the major component, in the tone.

People have use Teles for Jazz forever.