Tube power amp sounds better than solid state power amp for modelers

[Baba]

Ewwww powertube distortion

 

[Jarick]

Echo chamber for the win. FWIW, I use traditional amps mostly these days and have a bunch of tube power amps to run modelers through as well as multiple SS options and cabs. I think most of the respondents here are grossly over generalizing and over simplifying, TBH. But that is how these kind of discussions go. There are a lot of variables.

Well I don't think anyone's trying to kiss my ass if that's what you're saying.

Did you use EQ/cuts with the amps? I think that's the big thing I'm seeing. Knowing my sample size is small and I haven't measured much, but it's pretty obvious between these amps anyway.

I'll go against the grain here. I've tried several modelers through a Fryette Power Station 100 (2x 6550 tubes) vs my BluGuitar Amp 1 Mercury Edition (hybrid with subminiature tube for tube response + Class D solid-state poweramp).

The difference between them was minor soundwise with the BluGuitar having a bit of a "character" to it - no surprise since it's meant to emulate a guitar poweramp - but the BluGuitar is more compact and less noisy (no idle noise and no audible fan noise) so for modelers I'd even say it's the better poweramp.

I'd be curious to see what the BluGuitar measures at, if there's any EQ applies in the power amp section.

I think there's likely some power amps that are meant to more closely emulate tube guitar amps, and others which are trying to be very clean and flat more like a P.A. system. Thomas Blug is a really brilliant guy and the Amp 1 is very well regarded, so if the high/low cut effect is common for tube guitar amps, he likely included it.

I would like to test out the Orange stuff like the Pedal Baby or Terror Stamp. If I find one cheap I may snag it to see how it sounds/measures.

As always ..... "if it sounds good it is good "

But isn't there an issue (?) in that the Modelers [mostly all of them] model the Tube Power Amp Stage so you would be running a model of a cranked virtual Tube Power Amp Stage -into- a real cranked Tube Power Amp Stage ? ... doubling up so to speak ?

So if doing it with an Axe 3, would it not be "best" / "advisable" to Globally Turn OFF the Power Amp Modelling if running into the EFX Return of a real Tube Power Amp (?)

With Helix this cant be done.

Just some random thoughts.

Ben

So I'm not cranking this amp by any means, there may be a little compression, maybe, but likely it's pretty clean. The big thing I see is the tonal shaping, not necessarily the distortion. I suppose I could measure the Axe 3 output with and without power amp modeling but I don't see any reason to turn it off honestly.

With Helix I've always found the preamp models to sound awful by themselves. Especially with any kind of vintage amp, you need the power section to get the tone.

Looks like it’s time for me to point out that the Tech 21 PE60 (preferably with the original speaker) is still my undisputed champion for amp tones out of any modeler.

I'd love to try one out. It's been on my radar for about 20 years but never pulled the trigger.

Ewwww powertube distortion

No power tube distortion at the volume levels I'm using for sure.

 

[Jarick]

Yeah the Bandit is SS and a couple others I didn't mention were a Samson SS power amp and little Joyo Meteor which is technically a SS amp with a tube pre. I actually didn't mind the Bandit all that much but yeah stiff and and a bit sterile comparatively.

Those Spider Valves are a great value for what you get. A Bogner designed power amp and if you get a combo, like you said stock V30's come in them.

Saw a used DT50 at the store yesterday for $400 and was pretty intrigued. Any idea how close they are (or aren't) to the Spider Valve? It had some rebranded Celestion speaker in it, looked pretty decent quality, but weighed an absolute ton.

 

[Bob Zaod]

Saw a used DT50 at the store yesterday for $400 and was pretty intrigued. Any idea how close they are (or aren't) to the Spider Valve? It had some rebranded Celestion speaker in it, looked pretty decent quality, but weighed an absolute ton.

By itself? Leagues above the Spider Valve. As a tube power amp about the same from my experience.

 

[Bob Zaod]

Yeah I loathe it too. flubby, farty mess it is.

 

[JT]

Pedal Baby is pretty much nothingburger, imo

 

[Bob Zaod]

It's true you can't turn off the power amp modelling on the Helix, but you can swap out the amp block for a preamp block.

Which effectively turns off the power amp emulation

 

[northern_fox]

As always ..... "if it sounds good it is good "

But isn't there an issue (?) in that the Modelers [mostly all of them] model the Tube Power Amp Stage so you would be running a model of a cranked virtual Tube Power Amp Stage -into- a real cranked Tube Power Amp Stage ? ... doubling up so to speak ?

So if doing it with an Axe 3, would it not be "best" / "advisable" to Globally Turn OFF the Power Amp Modelling if running into the EFX Return of a real Tube Power Amp (?)

With Helix this cant be done.

Just some random thoughts.

Ben

Correct - BUT, it doesn't sound any worse in general - you just have to adjust your EQ. Basically it'll just make the tone a little more scooped if it's a real amp's poweramp (like my fender or mesa FX returns), but dedicated power amps like my VHT/Carvin TS100 have a lot less coloration than that and won't add additional distortion. In fact, I can dial in the VHT to sound pretty close to exactly like my matrix GT1000FX, and I _still_ prefer how it sounds in the room, though you'd only be able to discern that difference playing by yourself probably. The PA50 has more coloration since I understand it's basically the power section of a KSR amp, but it still sounds really good.

The class D stuff may be more technically accurate tonewise, but really what's important is which one makes you smile the most IMO and there's no wrong answer. No one listening is going to know any different either way. I'll use whichever makes the most sense usually, preferring my KSR because it's tube but also tiny and light. I need to try the ISP stealth though (class AB)

 

[Elric]

Well I don't think anyone's trying to kiss my ass if that's what you're saying.

Good lord, of course not. WTF would even make you think that was being said? Basically the data and anecdotes here are a small sample space and a small group of people are generalizing a topic/problem with *many* variables... the whole thing is basically many shades of grey but the ensuing discussion makes it seem to be black and white on a cursory reading if you don't consider any other outside information.

It's typical of net discussions like this and is not the fault of the folks here; it's just how things like this go down in this context.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. (H.L. Mencken).

 

[Speedyone]

Can anyone here tell me specifically what a tube power amp does for the sound of your modeler/profiler compared to a solid state power amp, when played through a guitar cabinet?

I’ve got a Kemper, which I play through a TC BAM Solid State power amp.

I do NOT like power amp distortion. I get ALL my gain from preamp distortion, because I like my high gain to be super tight.

However, I DO like really warm cleans. My favorite clean tones are from a 59 Bassman.

So my question is this:

Would using a tube power amp make my high gain tones flubby?

I’ve never used a tube power amp, and have only used high gain solid state amps, so I have no idea.

 

[la szum]

Good lord, of course not. WTF would even make you think that was being said? Basically the data and anecdotes here are a small sample space and a small group of people are generalizing a topic/problem with *many* variables... the whole thing is basically many shades of grey but the ensuing discussion makes it seem to be black and white on a cursory reading if you don't consider any other outside information.

It's typical of net discussions like this and is not the fault of the folks here; it's just how things like this go down in this context.

Well, let us talk about and discuss nothing here then.

 

[EOengineer]

I'll go against the grain here. I've tried several modelers through a Fryette Power Station 100 (2x 6550 tubes) vs my BluGuitar Amp 1 Mercury Edition (hybrid with subminiature tube for tube response + Class D solid-state poweramp).

The difference between them was minor soundwise with the BluGuitar having a bit of a "character" to it - no surprise since it's meant to emulate a guitar poweramp - but the BluGuitar is more compact and less noisy (no idle noise and no audible fan noise) so for modelers I'd even say it's the better poweramp.

IIRC that tube poweramp emulation in the Amp1 is similar to the strategy used in the original blue Vox Valvetronix amps. I believe Mahaffay amps also uses that approach for their amps…and I have to say after playing them…there is something there that I find very agreeable to play through. The Amp1 and Mahaffay HiLo Plexi both get unbelievably close to my bigger Marshall style heads in how they compress and bounce through the speaker cab.

I really think a product gap exists for the live traditionalist where we need a solid state class D amp paired with that reactive-whatever technology that can mimic class A, class AB, variable negative feedback, etc, and a way to assign it all via MIDI so my presets can customize the amplification..done deal…shut up and take my money.

 

[MadMaxG79]

When it comes to using my Helix LT through the return of an amp, I have used the following amps generally with a horizontal half open back 2x12 of English V30's.

Mesa DR Tremoverb head
Marshall DSL100H
Marshall DSL40c combo
Line 6 Spidervalve combo or HD100 head
Mesa Mark V 90 combo
Mesa DC-3 head
Jet City JCA100 head
Peavey Bandit Red Stripe combo
Peavey Valveking II 100 head

and a few others that instantly sucked so I didn't spend much time dialing.

I don't have any hard empirical evidence to prove anything but the very best I have experienced so far is the Line 6 Spider Valve HD100.
Not surprised because the tube power section is designed to work well with amp and fx modelling. Seriously it's really not even close what I prefer. The Spider Valve brings out the best in every modeler I have plugged in to it. Sounds and feels the most natural. I have a small collection of Spider Valves because they can be had so cheap on the used market and I want to make sure that if one dies I have backups.

Great. Now you're making me gas for a local Spider Valve 212 at about 330$ - even though I have "no" use for it...

How ironic. Modelers usher in the death of tube amps, but only sound good with tube amps.

It IS ironic that modelers sound best through a tube power section and real guitar speakers. However it is certainly true IME. Also:
1. Nobody is saying that modelers ONLY sound good with tube amps - just that some/most of us prefer the sound
2. There are A LOT of other reasons to buy a modeler besides replacing a tube amp, such as flexibility in preamp sounds, replacing a large pedalboard, access to large range of guitar effects, built in pedalboard switcher, ease of recording, recording interface, consistency of sounds using presets, flexibility of effects settings thanks to scenes and probably a lot of other use cases that I haven't even thought of...

 

[MirrorProfiles]

How ironic. Modelers usher in the death of tube amps, but only sound good with tube amps.

For me, it’s guitar cabs sound better when being driven by a tube amps. I don’t think the modeller really gets affected, but cabs have a certain feel that can easily get disrupted if we treat them like they are studio monitors

 

[Will Chen]

How ironic. Modelers usher in the death of tube amps, but only sound good with tube amps.

Only on forums with obsessive compulsive hobbyists.

 

[Jarick]

How ironic. Modelers usher in the death of tube amps, but only sound good with tube amps.

It may just need to be another setting or layer that needs to be tweaked. Or maybe not, could just be my very small sample size.

I would have to assume since Cliff has dozens (or hundreds) of tube amps, he's measured everything and already has modeled the EQ of the tube power amp. But to my ears, I just hear a very pleasing difference and I measured what I heard as well.

I've spent the last couple weeks searching forums looking for information on two things:

First: the high frequency roll-off I observed in the tube amp; is this something others have observed in tube vs solid state power amps, and what's the best way to recreate this in Fractal? The most interesting thing I saw is a parameter called "dynamic presence" which when turned down helped a few people get away from that harshness. But that parameter seems to have been removed at some point.

Second: I'm hearing a warmth in a lot of Kemper profiles that is quite pleasing; have others found this as well compared to Fractal, and what's the best way to recreate this in the Axe FX? For me that would help bridge the gap between these devices.

 

[DieSchmalle]

Any requests for the next episode?

Dynamics (compression/sag) comparison between the Katana and the Blackstar power amps.

 

[Jarick]

Dynamics (compression/sag) comparison between the Katana and the Blackstar power amps.

Sonically? I'm not sure how to compare otherwise.

 

[northern_fox]

It may just need to be another setting or layer that needs to be tweaked. Or maybe not, could just be my very small sample size.

I would have to assume since Cliff has dozens (or hundreds) of tube amps, he's measured everything and already has modeled the EQ of the tube power amp. But to my ears, I just hear a very pleasing difference and I measured what I heard as well.

I think modeling the tube power sections, and actually re-amplifying the signal into real speakers are two totally distinct pieces of the problem. You can have the characteristics of the poweramp/speaker modeled flawlessly, but you've still got to think about how to recreate that in the room. If I model a cranked marshall and play it into a 412 at 90 dB, it's not truly representative of the actual amp volume which would be much louder, and that affects how I perceive the sound a lot. A tube power amp doesn't solve this - but just as in illustration of how the reamplification choices won't necessarily reproduce what you want even though the model is "perfect".

Likewise, I think there are some amplification characteristics (class D vs AB for example) that factor in which extend beyond just the coloration of the power amp. I'm not qualified to say anything about that, but suffice to say that IME I just personally prefer playing through the class AB / tube power amps I have vs the solid state ones I have.

 

[Orvillain]

Two pointless questions in life:

1. Does God exist?
2. Why does modelling exist, when we have tube amps?