Tonex aliasing

Shredder777 said:
Also, having done some investigation on the Liquid Profiles, the ToneX seems to have a similar capability, in that it lets you choose the frequency range and Q of each EQ control. Which is largely what the liquid profiles are doing (you choose from a list the amp model you are profiling). With ToneX you have to actually figure out how to set those values.
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Kind of... most tonestacks are passive EQs so controls interact with each other and it's quite hard to replicate their behaviour with a standard EQ... plus Tonex lacks the ability to place the EQ pre or post distortion
 
DLC86 said:
Kind of... most tonestacks are passive EQs so controls interact with each other and it's quite hard to replicate their behaviour with a standard EQ... plus Tonex lacks the ability to place the EQ pre or post distortion
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Thats just not correct. Look at the ToneX manual, page 21 and you can see that any effect can be placed pre or post, including the EQ.
 
Shredder777 said:
Thats just not correct. Look at the ToneX manual, page 21 and you can see that any effect can be placed pre or post, including the EQ.
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You're right, I always adjust it from the main controls on the amp and forgot there's a post button in the advanced controls... but that doesn't change the first part of my post.
 
DLC86 said:
You're right, I always adjust it from the main controls on the amp and forgot there's a post button in the advanced controls... but that doesn't change the first part of my post.
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Nor does it means it sounds worse because you have measured more aliasing.

My first question was, did you run the software or the pedal. If this problem is solved by more oversampling, certainly then can do that in the software. Your measurements indicate they are using less than 8x oversampling (because Fractal uses 8x ... they must be using less.)

I haven't received my pedal yet, but the only potential obstacle here is that the pedal has weaker processing. Its conceivable that they will improve the software and pedal at some point.

I am picky about some things, but don't expect to be about this.

What I can distinguish is good conversion from bad. These have -123db sn which is comparable to the HD8 I use, which I am certain is better conversion than the old Kemper. That may be why people like the ToneX pedal better than the Kemper.
 
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Shredder777 said:
I know that aliasing was a big problem with Helix,
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Personally I wouldn't say it was ever a big problem, but it is entirely subjective to the individual...
Shredder777 said:
But before that, people were enamored with the Helix, so obviously it didn't affect majority of people's opinions.
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See above... ;)

It should be said that neither the Pod Go, nor any of the Pod Express pedals got the oversampling update that the Helix did, and you really don't hear of too many people complaining about squirrels with these products.
 
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Someone needs to come out with a dummy-proof USB reamp box that makes capturing for ToneX and NAM as easy as the Kemper.
 
Pardon the noob question:

Will profiling/captures ever be able to "model" the amp?

Instead of capturing a single snapshot setting of the amp, can captures sweep through different amp controls and record mini-snapshots taken at each setting, thereby creating a "black box model" of the amp? I imagine this is impractical, as you'd have to sweep through every permutation of every single amp knob, perhaps making the capture-model too large to be used practically. The capture-model would have to know which knob is being turned too. Way too time consuming as well, unless there is a way of automating the process:

snapshot_000: volume1, gain1, tone1
snapshot_001: volume2, gain1, tone1
snapshot_002: volume3, gain1, tone1
snapshot_003: volume1, gain2, tone1
snapshot_004: volume1, gain3, tone1
snapshot_005: volume1, gain1, tone2
....
etc (going through all permutations)

Just thinking out loud. At this point just use the Fractal models (lol), but I like these thought experiments.
 
blandified said:
Pardon the noob question:

Will profiling/captures ever be able to "model" the amp?

Instead of capturing a single snapshot setting of the amp, can captures sweep through different amp controls and record mini-snapshots taken at each setting, thereby creating a "black box model" of the amp? I imagine this is impractical, as you'd have to sweep through every permutation of every single amp knob, perhaps making the capture-model too large to be used practically. The capture-model would have to know which knob is being turned too. Way too time consuming as well, unless there is a way of automating the process:

snapshot_000: volume1, gain1, tone1
snapshot_001: volume2, gain1, tone1
snapshot_002: volume3, gain1, tone1
snapshot_003: volume1, gain2, tone1
snapshot_004: volume1, gain3, tone1
snapshot_005: volume1, gain1, tone2
....
etc (going through all permutations)

Just thinking out loud. At this point just use the Fractal models (lol), but I like these thought experiments.
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Allegedly this is what the Quad Cortex models are. You can't make your own "complete" capture model but all the factory models on the QC may be exactly this.
 
paisleywookiee said:
That’s a dumb sentiment. This stuff should be easy to use, so it spreads out and makes the ecosystem better.
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I was sorta kidding. Real question, how much more difficult is the ToneX and NAM than Kemper?

But also, most dummies already opt out of that kind of thing anyway. How many dummies do you know that want to learn computer programming for instance?

This is like overclocking. In the PC review space, the enthusiast channels like to pretend that their audience can't overclock and thus never explore obvious settings that 99% of their viewers will make. As if the typical person who built a computer and plays guitar can't figure out how to set levels. They like to pretend that their reviews are for average "dummies" but their viewers are high information and experienced with computers.

I now know that PaisleyWookie takes statements literally and not toungue in cheek. I will be more specific for you in the future.
 
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Shredder777 said:
I was sorta kidding. Real question, how much more difficult is the ToneX and NAM than Kemper?
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The cabling isn't difficult. The results from the captures vary wildly.
Shredder777 said:
But also, most dummies already opt out of that kind of thing anyway. How many dummies do you know that want to learn computer programming for instance?
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You're taking the "dummies" term too literally. Plenty of people would love to capture their own amps. It's not analogous to computer programming. At all.
Shredder777 said:
This is like overclocking. In the PC review space, the enthusiast channels like to pretend that their audience can't overclock and thus never explore obvious settings that 99% of their viewers will make. As if the typical person who built a computer and plays guitar can't figure out how to set levels. They like to pretend that their reviews are for average "dummies" but their viewers are high information and experienced with computers.
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No, it's definitely nothing like that either. It's using a computer. That's it.
 
paisleywookiee said:
The cabling isn't difficult. The results from the captures vary wildly.

You're taking the "dummies" term too literally. Plenty of people would love to capture their own amps. It's not analogous to computer programming. At all.

No, it's definitely nothing like that either. It's using a computer. That's it.
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So why do you think ToneX regressed in this space compared to Kemper? Yet they seem to be selling like gangbusters?

Lets stop pretending the average user is "average".
 
Shredder777 said:
So why do you think ToneX regressed in this space compared to Kemper? Yet they seem to be selling like gangbusters?

Lets stop pretending the average user is "average".
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Regressed? It introduces the variable of interfaces and computers. While not difficult things to use, the leveling and such has been a problem. And I'm not pretending anything about what's average and what isn't.
 
Profiling on a Kemper is dead simple. Successfully capturing with a Tone-X where the end result matches the amp for me was Ugh-city. Using their own interface. There is enough of a tonesharing infrastructure and freebies combined with it's cheap point of entry that it has done well I'd say.
 
JiveTurkey said:
Profiling on a Kemper is dead simple. Successfully capturing with a Tone-X where the end result matches the amp for me was Ugh-city. Using their own interface. There is enough of a tonesharing infrastructure and freebies combined with it's cheap point of entry that it has done well I'd say.
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Right. It's just a drag, IMO, to a own a capture-capable device that I can't easily turn around and capture stuff exactly how I want it. It's why this stuff will always be secondary for me.
 
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