The main reason modellers don’t work for me live (not a rant)

[fiftyshadesofslay]

So after using a modeller live a bunch recently and absolutely hating it, it got me thinking about what I’m actually missing and what the problem is.

For a bit of context I don’t like using modellers anyway, but I’ve had the opportunity to pick up a load of work with a function band that offers a silent stage / low volume option, as well as having gigs with awkward load ins (central London with no parking etc) so it’s back to a modeller for certain gigs.

For me, I’ve come to the realisation that in some ways it’s not really the modeller but it’s how I play. I grew up with loud amps and stacks playing sludge metal, punk, hardcore stuff and have always relied on the interaction of a cab for feedback, sustain, feeling the vibrations on stage, feeling the power of the full band and PA, and with a modeller running direct with IEM’s that’s all gone. Yes it may sound similar (though I still prefer cab sound coming off the stage) but it totally changes the way I play and honestly, I feel like I play much worse in that situation, which can be frustration.

Yes you can use cabs and power amps and FRFR’s but then you’ve got an amp and a board, so may as well use an amp, plus to get it up to where the guitar interacts with the cab you’ve completely lost any chance of a low volume mix.

Does make me wonder that the reason so many people have no issues is that they’re used to playing a different way or at low volumes, so it’s a non-issue for them? And if you’re relying on the interaction to play a certain way, maybe there’s no easy solution that doesn’t involve using a ton of equipment, or losing the benefits of modellers.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

*plugs Les Paul into a Plexi stack on 10 loves life*

*plugs tele into Marshall MS2*

Declares “yeah, I’m still just an LP guy”.

 

[ian_dissonance]

I’ve just always had some sort of digital in my rig since the Zoom 505 as a practice solution when I couldn’t bother the family. Zoom 505-> Boss GT-6 -> Boss GT-8 -> Digitech RP-1000 -> POD HD -> Helix. Up until the POD HD I was using a power amp/cab or head + four-cable and cab and then went direct/FRFR since. Doing live and studio sound definitely made using the stuff easier and always doing my personal practice via “silent stage” since ~1999 also made it easier. Now I don’t know if I’d want to do a project that would require me to have a real amp and cab without my IEMs and a direct option.

 

[OrganicZed]

It seems like your issue isn't actually the modeler but the silent stage. I suspect you'd have the same issues using a tube amplifier into a load box and then going direct with IEMs.

Yes, playing a silent stage is lame and it is especially bad when the overall gig volume is low. Feeling the guitar interact with your body is a wonderful part of playing loudly and silent stages remove that entirely. Also, Cliff (from Fractal Audio) has done measurements demonstrating that the acoustic coupling between a guitar and speaker cab has non-trivial impacts on the tone, so you're missing that as well.

Having a great sounding IEM does help to restore some of the fun. I bought a set of 64 Audio A12t custom IEMs earlier this year and I have been loving the way that they sound.

 

[Chocol8]

When I played louder, I used to go for unpotted pickups and tried to stay on the edge of feedback, so I know exactly how you feel. You simply can’t do that at low volumes, tube, SS, or digital. I wish I had a suggestion to help out but I don’t.

 

[ragingplatypi]

I used to play mostly rhythm with few effects and loved the interaction with a loud amp. But after recording a bunch and taking on more lead guitar work, my playing changed dramatically, and I began to appreciate a palate of effects and the control digital gives. It’s a different experience, but equally satisfying for me. I get how it’s not for everyone though.

I’d love to have the opportunity to play some straight up rock nice and loud. It’s been years for me though.

 

[sleewell]

you can use the modeler for only the effects when you play live. just because they have amp & cab sims and stuff doesn't mean you have to use them

2 presets. one at home with everything. one for live with only effects. still better for routing and complex changes than tap dancing on a bunch of pedals

 

[DrewJD82]

Any chance you could use an actual guitar cab, a 1x12 or something, pointed directly at your face? That’d probably alleviate a good amount of things right there. They really don’t have to be cranked to ear bleed volumes to interact with the guitar, especially if they’re pointed directly at you/the guitar.

 

[fiftyshadesofslay]

you can use the modeler for only the effects when you play live. just because they have amp & cab sims and stuff doesn't mean you have to use them

2 presets. one at home with everything. one for live with only effects. still better for routing and complex changes than tap dancing on a bunch of pedals

Any chance you could use an actual guitar cab, a 1x12 or something, pointed directly at your face? That’d probably alleviate a good amount of things right there. They really don’t have to be cranked to ear bleed volumes to interact with the guitar, especially if they’re pointed directly at you/the guitar.

I agree that cabs and amps can help, I’m just talking about having to go direct. And the lack of feedback you get.

I’m at the point where if I’m even going to entertain some form of on stage amplification I may as well just use an amp, no reason to get an inferior modeller involved then.

Agreed that the switching is kind of handy.

 

[sleewell]

when i went direct i clicked on the freeze in between songs for our noise bits. worked good.

 

[DrewJD82]

I agree that cabs and amps can help, I’m just talking about having to go direct. And the lack of feedback you get.

I’m at the point where if I’m even going to entertain some form of on stage amplification I may as well just use an amp, no reason to get an inferior modeller involved then.

Agreed that the switching is kind of handy.

I got all that, but I wasn’t sure how strict the silent aspect of the stage is. This single cab wouldn’t be loud enough to keep up with the band, it’s specifically just for the guitar interaction with a speaker. You’d still be going direct and that’s the signal FOH would use, the cab is only for you.

 

[Frodebro]

I spent a good chunk of my teenage years playing through headphones with a Rockman (which was just about all there was at the time for that type of configuration), then in my twenties spent a number of years in a cover band with a traditional rig that I was able to wind up every weekend.

As a result, I’m perfectly comfortable with just about any type of rig. I don’t feel that I’m “missing out” on anything precious if I’m not standing in front of a cranked amp, but I also don’t feel like my options are limited if I’m running through a very basic traditional rig with just a dirt pedal and a delay.

I guess I’m an outlier in that regard, but I’m okay with that.

 

[Orvillain]

It seems to me that some people play for the love of notes, some people play for the love of atmosphere, some people play for the love of a paycheck.

We're not all the same, and we don't need to be.

I play real amps at home as much as I can. I write better, I feel better, and I'm a happier and more productive member of society when I have valves in my life.

No valves, and I'm Jack Torrence.

 

[Frodebro]

It seems to me that some people play for the love of notes, some people play for the love of atmosphere, some people play for the love of a paycheck.

We're not all the same, and we don't need to be.

I play real amps at home as much as I can. I write better, I feel better, and I'm a happier and more productive member of society when I have valves in my life.

No valves, and I'm Jack Torrence.

At home, my favorite thing is fucking around with a traditional pedalboard into a traditional amp. It hits the musical G spot for me. With the band, I’m dealing with blending with a second guitar player and keyboards. All those little nuances disappear in that environment, and the focus is shifted completely to what I’m playing, not how sexy pure real my tone is.

 

[newholland]

im absolutely with the interacting cab/guitar. if my choice was play silently or not play, id not play. i cant even stand watching rock shows where somebody apes rock power at speaking volume. i cant do that.. its basically karaoke and air guitar. if air aint moving, its just not happening.

 

[fiftyshadesofslay]

At home, my favorite thing is fucking around with a traditional pedalboard into a traditional amp. It hits the musical G spot for me. With the band, I’m dealing with blending with a second guitar player and keyboards. All those little nuances disappear in that environment, and the focus is shifted completely to what I’m playing, not how sexy pure real my tone is.

Agreed on that, I’m definitely at the point where the little nuances of your tone are mostly lost live, especially with function work and having to compromise in untreated rooms.

For me it’s not just the tone, it fundamentally changes how I play guitar if I don’t have that interaction between guitar and cab.