Should NAMM amp simulation be considered a standard going forward by all manufacturers?

[SKU]

Well you read it and tell me what he meant then…

I don't think that's how business works ... It's not a matter of respect but being able to implement something as good or better while keeping the same level of quality they are known for in the market.
For example Tonex is more precise than Kemper but it's not even close in terms of features but at the same time nobody expected IK to deliver something on the level of Kemper in terms of features. Line6 on the other hand ... people would expect something like the Helix but with profiles.

 

[SeeD]

Respect... hmm.
Line6 have made models of Fender, Marshall, 1-1 Friedman, Boss, EVH, a heap of pedals.. and so on.. And that is a ok!
Selling a product on the shoulders on brand names
It just sounds wierd to me, when company say these things.

 

[laxu]

Respect... hmm.
Line6 have made models of Fender, Marshall, 1-1 Friedman, Boss, EVH, a heap of pedals.. and so on.. And that is a ok!
Selling a product on the shoulders on brand names
It just sounds wierd to me, when company say these things.

That's entirely the fault of the buying public. Both Line6 and Fractal have said in interviews that they'd rather do their own models but the emulation game is what sells.

You could argue that most amp and pedal brands out there stand on the shoulders of age old circuit designs. I mean how many Marshall variants did we get this year alone?

 

[SeeD]

That's entirely the fault of the buying public. Both Line6 and Fractal have said in interviews that they'd rather do their own models but the emulation game is what sells.

You could argue that most amp and pedal brands out there stand on the shoulders of age old circuit designs. I mean how many Marshall variants did we get this year alone?

Yes, and now it`s down too also Capturing stuff, and that is what the folks want, and that is an option that line6 needs to incorporate in their new modeler.
Of course, anything comes from something. It all starts from one. But too raise the `respect` card is a bit of a wierd one
I have read that Fractal would not do `profiling` because they would be scard of lawyers from Kemper, but how do ToneX, Quad Cortex, Headrush, Mooer get around this.. if this would be the case
I love having models and capturing options

 

[laxu]

Yes, and now it`s down too also Capturing stuff, and that is what the folks want, and that is an option that line6 needs to incorporate in their new modeler.
Of course, anything comes from something. It all starts from one. But too raise the `respect` card is a bit of a wierd one
I have read that Fractal would not do `profiling` because they would be scard of lawyers from Kemper, but how do ToneX, Quad Cortex, Headrush, Mooer get around this.. if this would be the case
I love having models and capturing options

Fractal had a similar patent to something Kemper patented a few years ago and afaik Kemper tried to contest that even though Fractal was granted the patent first.

I don't really see capturing as a particularly important feature when you have over 100 unique amp models like Fractal does. I'd rather see them do something original than try to be another "me too" product. Same for Line6.

 

[SeeD]

Fractal had a similar patent to something Kemper patented a few years ago and afaik Kemper tried to contest that even though Fractal was granted the patent first.

I don't really see capturing as a particularly important feature when you have over 100 unique amp models like Fractal does. I'd rather see them do something original than try to be another "me too" product. Same for Line6.

I think Fractal patended Tone Matching ( eq matching) I might be wrong. I think Kemper steped on a patend Cliff had with the whole `liquid profiling` maching a tone satck to a model or something. I might be wrong about that one as well as I don`t keep up in the Fractal universe

I love the option to try out other amps that folks share on the app, pedals as well. It`s a fun way to cure the GAS sometimes. I also have a few friends with some cool amps and pedals. For me it`s fun.

 

[Will Chen]

Respect... hmm.
Line6 have made models of Fender, Marshall, 1-1 Friedman, Boss, EVH, a heap of pedals.. and so on.. And that is a ok!
Selling a product on the shoulders on brand names
It just sounds wierd to me, when company say these things.

Let's be 100% clear....in the world of tubes and transistors everything is built on the shoulders of what came before. In fact...companies can't even copyright their circuit designs as there is nothing original about them.

 

[Sedaxel]

Let's be 100% clear....in the world of tubes and transistors everything is built on the shoulders of what came before. In fact...companies can't even copyright their circuit designs as there is nothing original about them.

Yeah, and not only in the world of tubes and transistors, but in the whole technology world.

 

[Whizzinby]

I have a hard time believing the big boys (Fractal, L6) are going to create a path where you can play content they didn’t develop or wasn’t created from their device or methods.

I see this as a value-add potentially for second/third tier devices.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

That's entirely the fault of the buying public. Both Line6 and Fractal have said in interviews that they'd rather do their own models but the emulation game is what sells.

You could argue that most amp and pedal brands out there stand on the shoulders of age old circuit designs. I mean how many Marshall variants did we get this year alone?

Which proves the point -- they are more than happy to rip other folks off (in the case of a lot of the effects, even rip other digital effects makers off) when its what the public wants to buy.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I have a hard time believing the big boys (Fractal, L6) are going to create a path where you can play content they didn’t develop or wasn’t created from their device or methods.

I see this as a value-add potentially for second/third tier devices.

I mean, Cliff's personality seems like he'd totally be fine with it...

"What? Oh, yeah, sure, run that NAM file of a Quad Cortex capture of a Kemper profile of a Line 6 pre-aliassing-update amp on the Axe Fx III. That's exactly why I've spent the last 20 years of my life improving the accuracy of my amp modeling and still release new updates on Saturday night at 6pm to address insanely subtle improvements to cathode bias b+ release time-space-continuum pauli exclussion uncertainty principle calculations, and totally why I have a history of making my device open source so that you can export the IRs and use them on whatever...that's what I'm all about."

 

[TubeStack]

Short answer ... no ... no-one will ever agree or concede that someone else's "process" is better than theirs.

I was thinking this too, after reading this thread. Fractal or L6 including captures/profiles could be seen as an implied admission/concession that their amp models aren't the ultimate solution and don't work for everybody.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I mean, Cliff's personality seems like he'd totally be fine with it...

"What? Oh, yeah, sure, run that NAM file of a Quad Cortex capture of a Kemper profile of a Line 6 pre-aliassing-update amp on the Axe Fx III. That's exactly why I've spent the last 20 years of my life improving the accuracy of my amp modeling and still release new updates on Saturday night at 6pm to address insanely subtle improvements to cathode bias b+ release time-space-continuum pauli exclussion uncertainty principle calculations, and totally why I have a history of making my device open source so that you can export the IRs and use them on whatever...that's what I'm all about."

BUT WHAT IF BRADFORD MADE THE PROFILE?!?!?!?!?

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I was thinking this too, after reading this thread. Fractal or L6 including captures/profiles could be seen as an implied admission/concession that their amp models aren't the ultimate solution and don't work for everybody.

The point I tried to make earlier that you disagreed (and that I didn't make as clearly as I intended) was the more positive version of this: human nature of somebody that has building a platform for as long as they have is to see it as being the better solution.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

BUT WHAT IF BRADFORD MADE THE PROFILE?!?!?!?!?

In that particular case? There would be graphs

 

[TubeStack]

...human nature of somebody that has building a platform for as long as they have is to see it as being the better solution.

Agreed, but to add to my recent point: I don't see it necessarily being the case that including captures is an admission that amp models are somehow a lesser solution or method.

I think the sheer fact that Fractal/L6 can't possibly model every amp in existence, means that for some, the amp they want to use won't be available as a digital model, and for these people, captures work better, so wouldn't it be great if they could have them in a Fractal/L6 product?

 

[TubeStack]

(Not so subtly referring to myself here ^^^ . I would love it if I could access catpures of my Electra Dyne in a Fractal or L6 unit. The absence of capturing in their products is part of what "forced" me to move to the Quad Cortex.)

 

[SeeD]

I have a hard time believing the big boys (Fractal, L6) are going to create a path where you can play content they didn’t develop or wasn’t created from their device or methods.

I see this as a value-add potentially for second/third tier devices.

I remember when I had my Axe Fx II and we got FW 6.0 ( I think ) it was a big one for my needs, it had the TM block ( Tone Matching )
A cool way to use it, select a amp that is " close" and then let the TM block listen to a recording of a guitar tone, and then play the same, press match, and there is a copy ( sort of) it did work ok`isj.
That was Fractals `profiling` ala Kemper
So I think Cliff will do this again, or I hope he will get some new tech (NAM block, or something like it)

 

[SeeD]

I was thinking this too, after reading this thread. Fractal or L6 including captures/profiles could be seen as an implied admission/concession that their amp models aren't the ultimate solution and don't work for everybody.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I remember when I had my Axe Fx II and we got FW 6.0 ( I think ) it was a big one for my needs, it had the TM block ( Tone Matching )
A cool way to use it, select a amp that is " close" and then let the TM block listen to a recording of a guitar tone, and then play the same, press match, and there is a copy ( sort of) it did work ok`isj.
That was Fractals `profiling` ala Kemper
So I think Cliff will do this again, or I hope he will get some new tech (NAM block, or something like it)

He continues to improve on this, and has a patent filing on a new approach that allows the tone matching block to recognize what adjustments need to be done pre-amp and what needs to be done post-amp.

But in all of this he describes it as a method to allow you to better match an amp model already included in the Axe to a specific real world example with all of its tolerance variations, etc., not so much as a way to allow you to expand it to cover amps not already modeled in the Axe.