Should NAMM amp simulation be considered a standard going forward by all manufacturers?

[Digital Igloo]

Respect... hmm.
Line6 have made models of Fender, Marshall, 1-1 Friedman, Boss, EVH, a heap of pedals.. and so on.. And that is a ok!
Selling a product on the shoulders on brand names
It just sounds wierd to me, when company say these things.

I've addressed this before.

 

[Whizzinby]

I mean, Cliff's personality seems like he'd totally be fine with it...

"What? Oh, yeah, sure, run that NAM file of a Quad Cortex capture of a Kemper profile of a Line 6 pre-aliassing-update amp on the Axe Fx III. That's exactly why I've spent the last 20 years of my life improving the accuracy of my amp modeling and still release new updates on Saturday night at 6pm to address insanely subtle improvements to cathode bias b+ release time-space-continuum pauli exclussion uncertainty principle calculations, and totally why I have a history of making my device open source so that you can export the IRs and use them on whatever...that's what I'm all about."

100%. There is nothing I’ve seen from Cliff that would indicate he would remotely consider opening up his device to anything he hasn’t developed himself, and honestly I wouldn’t want him to. I could see him releasing some other capture tech/process before conceding it to someone else on his device. And with an amp library as deep as Frac, 75% of the stuff you’d capture is already modeled. lol If he keeps churning out models, he’ll eventually have the entire history of amps on it.

 

[SeeD]

I've addressed this before.

Yeah, outside Not good, Inside ( what counts ) is all good. And that is my point. If it`s all good, then why not do it ??
I hope Line6 do it

 

[Digital Igloo]

Yeah, outside Not good, Inside ( what counts ) is all good.

That's vastly oversimplifying things IMO. Technically, what Mooer did was "inside" too.

I'll admit things are never completely black and white, but if there were legitimate (read: not false online provocation) concerns regarding YGG's business practices, we'd do our best to address them. Let's just say that some companies are largely successful because they've made design, product, marketing, and sales decisions that could only be described as "side-eye inducing." That's not to say most of their employees aren't intelligent and passionate—they are. It's just that sometimes, the orders from above come from bad faith actors with narcissistic tendencies. Every industry has 'em.

Not fighting some nebulous altruistic fight as much as calling out shenanigans when I see it. Maybe it's cathartic; I dunno.

 

[SeeD]

That's vastly oversimplifying things IMO. Technically, what Mooer did was "inside" too.

I'll admit things are never completely black and white, but if there were legitimate (read: not false online provocation) concerns regarding YGG's business practices, we'd do our best to address them. Let's just say that some companies are largely successful because they've made design, product, marketing, and sales decisions that could only be described as "side-eye inducing." That's not to say most of their employees aren't intelligent and passionate—they are. It's just that sometimes, the orders from above come from bad faith actors with narcissistic tendencies. Every industry has 'em.

Not fighting some nebulous altruistic fight as much as calling out shenanigans when I see it. Maybe it's cathartic; I dunno.

Line6 made a exsact copy of the Friedman BE-100, that was ok. This is what modelers do these days, they make good copy`s of analog guitar stuff, and you guys make models of not real amplifiers and that is also cool. I need capturing/profiling also, so if Line6 got this in the future, I will take a good, long, hard look at this, and see if this is something I would like to buy.
If you guys can make a good capture block in the next hardware box, that would be nice. What Mooer or some company copys is not up to me, it`s good that this is taken care of.

But back to the respect thing... ( that was a wierd one for me ) that was all I ment to say about it. Kemper made a thing that could copy an amp sound in 5 minutes, without taking apart an amp. Too then take apart and measure parts of the real amplifier, and then make a digital copy of that amp ( like Line6 do ) all of the amp.
I guess that Line6 have a huge respect for Dave Friedman ? ( I think I know that you guys do ) But this is the game
Do you think that Line6 will never do a capture/profile block in the future purely out of respect to Kemper

Iv`e been watching the JHS stuff the last years, and he make copys of stuff, as do all the other pedal makers ( a lot ) but he made a promise to the Klon guy, saying he would never copy the Klon pedal and sell it ( he made a mod vs I think some years ago) but this year we can buy a kit so we can build it our selfs from JHS ( super cool conseps with the hole IKEA `look` haha

 

[TubeStack]

Line6 made a exsact copy of the Friedman BE-100, that was ok. This is what modelers do these days, they make good copy`s of analog guitar stuff, and you guys make models of not real amplifiers and that is also cool. I need capturing/profiling also, so if Line6 got this in the future, I will take a good, long, hard look at this, and see if this is something I would like to buy.
If you guys can make a good capture block in the next hardware box, that would be nice. What Mooer or some company copys is not up to me, it`s good that this is taken care of.

But back to the respect thing... ( that was a wierd one for me ) that was all I ment to say about it. Kemper made a thing that could copy an amp sound in 5 minutes, without taking apart an amp. Too then take apart and measure parts of the real amplifier, and then make a digital copy of that amp ( like Line6 do ) all of the amp.
I guess that Line6 have a huge respect for Dave Friedman ? ( I think I know that you guys do ) But this is the game
Do you think that Line6 will never do a capture/profile block in the future purely out of respect to Kemper

Iv`e been watching the JHS stuff the last years, and he make copys of stuff, as do all the other pedal makers ( a lot ) but he made a promise to the Klon guy, saying he would never copy the Klon pedal and sell it ( he made a mod vs I think some years ago) but this year we can buy a kit so we can build it our selfs from JHS ( super cool conseps with the hole IKEA `look` haha

I think the point is that there's a difference between making digital copies of circuits/sounds vs copying someone else's method of doing so, that they created/invented, if that makes sense.

 

[SeeD]

I think the point is that there's a difference between making digital copies of circuits/sounds vs copying someone else's method of doing so, that they created/invented, if that makes sense.

Is it ok to make your own profiler block/tech ? I would say yes, if they can do it and it sounds good

I guess I just dont get that `this` is ok ( sounds the same as the hole amp, every knob, SAT, Voice, FAT ) Yes the model we have in our modeler is a BE-100...Everyone knows that yes, Line6 made a good copy of that Friedman amp..VS this is a tool to make your own model/profile/capture without selling your modeler with a copy of a of a BE-100 under another name

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Yes the model we have in our modeler is a inspired by BE-100...

Its as if you've learned nothing from the legal department!!

I agree that the "we respect Christoph too much" doesn't really explain why they haven't tried to implement profiling. They didn't respect Strymon too much when they came up with their own take on the Deco pedal or Digitech too much when they came up with their own take on the Freqout, or Chase Bliss when they came up with their take on the Mood, all of which were already digital devices that didn't need to have the improved convenience of digital brought to them...

Maybe "we respect ourselves too much"?

 

[Enchilada Jones]

I don't think that's how business works ... It's not a matter of respect but being able to implement something as good or better while keeping the same level of quality they are known for in the market.
For example Tonex is more precise than Kemper but it's not even close in terms of features but at the same time nobody expected IK to deliver something on the level of Kemper in terms of features. Line6 on the other hand ... people would expect something like the Helix but with profiles.

Well you are guessing at how business works and disagreed that Line 6 had considered the ethical aspect as a reason to not go down that road.
I had cited comments from a rep from Line 6 who is way up there in the company deciding what Helix family will or won't be.
So I then quoted him for you to figure it out if my question was off base, if my citing Line 6 as having those concerns was correct after all. My part is done, I led the horse to water...

You also definitely didn't seem to read my original post and subsequent posts about it because you then went on to offer the very thing I suggested as an alternative to...well...what I had suggested! My question, point, line of reasoning is simple. Has the state of 'capturing' become so prevalent that even Line 6 and Fractal etc will have to include a means for INCLUDING it? NOT switching from modeling amps to going all in on capture type amps.... JUST including it.

I have a hard time believing the big boys (Fractal, L6) are going to create a path where you can play content they didn’t develop or wasn’t created from their device or methods.

I see this as a value-add potentially for second/third tier devices.

My thoughts are it is inevitable to reach a tipping point but I could be wrong. I'm not well versed in the market and how manufacturers/developers gauge things. Maybe I'm just being greedy. I love the big guys in the industry and I love the captured amps so I want my cake and see how well the big chefs will bake it so I can eat it all from one device.

I'm just sitting here trying to figure out how to fit a booth in a modeler block.

I'll check with NDSP and see if they can lend me their virtual SOON sign to put in the title where the booth was expected lol

 

[Enchilada Jones]

Its as if you've learned nothing from the legal department!!

I agree that the "we respect Christoph too much" doesn't really explain why they haven't tried to implement profiling. They didn't respect Strymon too much when they came up with their own take on the Deco pedal or Digitech too much when they came up with their own take on the Freqout, or Chase Bliss when they came up with their take on the Mood, all of which were already digital devices that didn't need to have the improved convenience of digital brought to them...

Maybe "we respect ourselves too much"?

Isn't taking popular or interesting analog stuff and making a digital version the whole basis for Helix product. So they aren't doing anything unusual for picking those type devices to model.
Kemper isn't modeling, its a different technology so they would be departing from their wheelhouse and simply doing a Behringer rip-off type release if they had come out with their version of a Profiler back then. A step too far.
I think at this point however, anything digital that we like to use to play guitars through that can fit in a block in their existing signal chain is fair game. But maybe not, maybe its still a step too far.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Isn't taking popular or interesting analog stuff and making a digital version the whole basis for Helix product. So they aren't doing anything unusual for picking those type devices to model.
Kemper isn't modeling, its a different technology so they would be departing from their wheelhouse and simply doing a Behringer rip-off type release if they had come out with their version of a Profiler back then. A step too far.
I think at this point however, anything digital that we like to use to play guitars through that can fit in a block in their existing signal chain is fair game. But maybe not, maybe its still a step too far.

Taking analog stuff and making a digital version of it; making a version of an old low-fidelity digital thing and making a modern digital version of it are all very different than the examples I cited, each of which were "seeing a new, modern digital thing and making your own version of it because it looks like a very useful thing to have in your digital device." So L6 incorporating profiling in the Helix would be a similar instance of them seeing a modern digital thing and incorporating their own version of it in Helix.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

Taking analog stuff and making a digital version of it; making a version of an old low-fidelity digital thing and making a modern digital version of it are all very different than the examples I cited, each of which were "seeing a new, modern digital thing and making your own version of it because it looks like a very useful thing to have in your digital device." So L6 incorporating profiling in the Helix would be a similar instance of them seeing a modern digital thing and incorporating their own version of it in Helix.

What I’m talking about is not adding profiling, or capture or any functionality that captures. I’m talking about adding a block that lets you use a capture profile etc.
Just like for years they had no IR capability and now they do. They didn’t add that because they were incapable of modeling cabs, they did it because ir’s became a thing that the vast majority of customers thought was important to get the best results for the intended use of the device. Were they copying someone else’s technology then? To some degree but isn’t that the nature of modeling devices to begin with?
Did they do anyone harm? I think not.

is the state of ‘captured’ amps and or cabs growing so fast and strong in the market that it is against their interest to not incorporate that feature?
I think that is the question they have to answer, actually I bet they already did and the answer so far has been no, but will there be a tipping point where they have to revisit it?

 

[northern_fox]

Just dropping in to say - bad IR's will make your unit sound as bad or worse than any bad capture and yet we can load 3rd party IR's in everything. Every existing unit and will sound bad all by itself when dialed in wrong as well. Afaic that's not a real basis for excluding the option of using IR's (or NAMs). I'd love to see an implementation but I don't think we'll ever see it in FAS and I don't think any of the other current hardware has the power to make it happen (with standard models at least). But there are other folks out there developing hardware for it which I'm quite looking forward to. Not everyone has to support everything, and there are/will be more options than ever outside of the big 4 for digital platforms.

In terms of standardization - it's definitely the capture tech with the best fit for that at the moment because of popularity, accuracy, modularity, and the fact that its open source, but I'd be a little surprised to see * any * capture tech be the same level of standard as an IR. There are just too many variables involved and too much specificity with respect to training. A .nam is really just a set of weights in a json file in the end anyway - it's not necessarily specific to guitar or anything and there's nothing that ties it to representing only amps/gear besides the training data/trainer.

 

[timbuck3]

100%. There is nothing I’ve seen from Cliff that would indicate he would remotely consider opening up his device to anything he hasn’t developed himself, and honestly I wouldn’t want him to. I could see him releasing some other capture tech/process before conceding it to someone else on his device. And with an amp library as deep as Frac, 75% of the stuff you’d capture is already modeled. lol If he keeps churning out models, he’ll eventually have the entire history of amps on it.

IF fractal keeps adding eclectic unique models why have profiling?

 

[riffy]

Because, if I like my amp, I can capture it at exactly the setting I like, with the mics the way I like them, with the blend I like and bake it a into one capture. I can do that three times and have a perfect three channel amp that will get me through any gig I do.

A modeler CAN'T do that for me...