Pedal Plagiarism

Desertdweller

Shredder
Messages
1,026


Taylor makes some great points in this video. I think for me, I'm more against copies of pedals from newer companies trying to make it right now (Horizon Devices, Friedman, etc.) and I could care less about companies that have had their designs out for a while and there are millions of copies. For example, tubescreamers.

Take the Fortin 33. It's a simplified circuit of the old TC Integrated Preamp, sold for $300+ by Fortin. It's not a new design. Then Pepers' Pedals made it even better with the Dirty Tree buy allowing you to either use the one knob mode like the Fortin, or have all 3 knobs available to you like on the original TC. Both Fortin and Pepers are not coming up with anything new, so does it matter if you buy a DemonFX 66 or a Grindr overdrive which are both blatant copies? Considering TC doesn't make it anymore, I feel like it's fair game for anyone.

Then there's Vemuram's Jan Ray, which I understand is a $350 Timmy clone, with a sultry brown paint job to appeal to the Nashville market. Is that ethical? Does the pedal add more to the original design?

I think it's a good debate to have.
 
An electronic circuit itself is not patentable, but the idea of what you achieve with it may be.

For example, sound processing by Dolby was patented and licenses brought large revenue. In order to be successful in the enforcement of the patented idea, it has to be very simple and clear.

A judge has to understand the concept.

giphy.gif
 


Taylor makes some great points in this video. I think for me, I'm more against copies of pedals from newer companies trying to make it right now (Horizon Devices, Friedman, etc.) and I could care less about companies that have had their designs out for a while and there are millions of copies. For example, tubescreamers.

Take the Fortin 33. It's a simplified circuit of the old TC Integrated Preamp, sold for $300+ by Fortin. It's not a new design. Then Pepers' Pedals made it even better with the Dirty Tree buy allowing you to either use the one knob mode like the Fortin, or have all 3 knobs available to you like on the original TC. Both Fortin and Pepers are not coming up with anything new, so does it matter if you buy a DemonFX 66 or a Grindr overdrive which are both blatant copies? Considering TC doesn't make it anymore, I feel like it's fair game for anyone.

Then there's Vemuram's Jan Ray, which I understand is a $350 Timmy clone, with a sultry brown paint job to appeal to the Nashville market. Is that ethical? Does the pedal add more to the original design?

I think it's a good debate to have.

Meh. Copy away. Burden is on the OG to make the thing they are selling sufficiently special enough for people to want to buy it over a copy-cat. Shouldn't be too hard to pull off.
 
Meh. there’s a reason this stuff isn’t considered IP or eligible to be patented. Clone away imo. Even better to clone with small tweaks which I think is kind of the norm
 
Meh. there’s a reason this stuff isn’t considered IP or eligible to be patented. Clone away imo. Even better to clone with small tweaks which I think is kind of the norm
What I find funny is the DemonFX version of the Precision Drive actually has a better gate in Taylor's video. It's an improvement for next to nothing.
 
What I find funny is the DemonFX version of the Precision Drive actually has a better gate in Taylor's video. It's an improvement for next to nothing.
Its almost like the people behind these $40 amazon special pedals aren't all that into making painstaking copies of the original that get all of the details right?
 
While I personally won't buy something like a DemonFX, I'm indifferent to it when it comes to others buying them. With DemonFX, specifically, the artwork is a bit much.

I love what PastFX is doing by making stuff that's not made anymore, or the tweaked versions of pedals aimed at Gilmour tones.
 
Back in the heat of my pre-digital, D clone tone quest, buying and trying every pedal and selling most of them, I landed on those early Joyo clones, which were $23 a piece at the time. I couldn’t suspend disbelief for the reverbs and delays so I didn’t buy those, but maybe they were good too.

But the Vintage Overdrive (TS) and Dynamic Compressor (DynaC) were incredible pedals. I sold them on principle (?!) soon after—and the board was covered with all original desirable stuff. But I’ve always planned to buy those same first gen Joyos again.

The ts clone was sparkly and detailed, different than my real vintage (Analogman modded) pedal. And the comp had a zingy unabashed squish sustain personality thing going on that was missing from all the Ego and Cali era more nuanced comps that everyone was exploring at the time. I forget what the Trem was called but it was great too.

Over the years since, I’ve built-up a drawer full of later Chinese mini D pedal Klon etc clones from various brands, but those really never get used because I’m mostly inside the Kemper. I have been putting a KOT in front that I got last year in a trade from Analog Mike. And yes it’s great. And yes, I kind of want to add his Mini Bi Comp and Sun Face, after all these years, because they’re cool and great and you don’t overthink his stuff, because they sound like they’re supposed to, so you end-up playing more. But that’s a studio board, not something that sits on the floor in a bar.

Anyway, back in the day I had so many frustrating interactions with many of the other legends of the boutique pedal world, long waits and sketchy build quality, and all that stuff topped-off by egregious pricing. It seemed at the time kind of like the dental world: one dentist decides to charge a thousand bucks for a filling, patient pays, and so then the entire industry follows suit.

Fine. I want a guy to make a living, but with pedals, I don’t know. Just like with Dumble clone amps, over the years lots of manufacturer internet finger-pointing at one another and sometimes even at customers about copping designs that they’d copped themselves in the first place, only to all circle their wagons to vilify anyone else who came out with related equipment at a price that guitarists could actually afford.

So then you get this perfect well built well packaged stuff that sounds good for no money, like so little money that no one would ever steal your board because it’s dirt cheap, and you still get grail tones .. it’s hard to at least not explore that breath of fresh air.

After like six different pricey Klones, EHX coming out with the $80 Soul Food was so cool. And it was closer to my ear to the real Klon I use regularly than some of the other cooler looking $200+ klones that now populate product lines of all those other companies that for years resisted ‘stealing’ Bill Finnegan’s design.

I don’t really know. I have a $30 Joyo AC Tone that has literally never been used, beyond testing. At some point I’d considered it as a backup. I’m not crazy about not sending money to Tech 21. But believe me if that thing became central to anything I was doing, I’d figure out a way to make it “right” with the NY company.

In the early days of digital recording and digital imagery, I had a ton of cracked plugins. Those really helped me get going. But at a certain point, once I’d actually used the stuff to make some substantial money, and maybe once I’d grown up a bit, I purged my systems of all that stuff and ponied up the dough. It felt better actually.

I don’t know .. Analog Mike consulting EHX on a cheap great TS, or making his signature sound available through a collab with MXR, this sounds like the viable future. Build expensive stuff, but don’t isolate your vision in a way that working folks, and kids especially, can’t also find a way to check your sounds out.

With money in our pockets it’s easy to judge, but I for one would point anyone on a budget in the direction of the cheap stuff.

This topic is at least murky. Yes I want some DemonFx clones. Will I use them, maybe maybe not. But no it’s not only because of digital or even clones. The pedal community, sort of like FCS and Gibson reissues, kind of ate itself by deciding at some point over a decade ago that their business model was to make expensive stuff for rich baby boomers, not for kids or working musicians.

I do see signs that they’re pivoting and even listening but there’s still a big vacuum and fun good cheap stuff is rushing in. ***Using the actual pedal name in the clone name—that’s new and crazy but … it’s a crazy world.

war and peace post™
(sorry - I’m traveling in india w time on my hands, but heading back to nyc tomorrow and then i’ll pipe the h*ll down. maybe.)
 
Last edited:
if someone wants the real deal, they'll buy it anyway. Usually the most popular clones are when its something expensive or rare/hard to get hold of like a Klon or TC Integrated Preamp where the majority of people aren't going to bothered about owning an original and DEFINITELY wouldn't consider paying anywhere close to full price for it.

I don't think the potential audience for either actually overlap that much, if anything having a load of clones adds to the lore and mystique of the rare stuff.
 
Lots of grey area here. I agree that really old pedals like Tube Screamers etc are totally fair game at this point.

Where I draw the line is when another manufacturer will straight up make a clone with someone else's product names. My understanding is that you can order the DemonFX or LyRock pedals done with e.g Analogman labeling. That's fraud, even if the actual pedal sounds the same.

I've built some clones of the Hudson Broadcast and Browne Protein using PedalPCB boards. This was really more of a "I want to try building a pedal" thing rather than "I want to save money". Those two pedals were just the "drive pedals du jour" at the time and I probably wouldn't have bought the real deals in the first place.

The Browne clone is actually two pedals in their own boxes, one for each side. So basically I built a modified Nobels ODR-1 and a modified Marshall Bluesbreaker. Comparing the circuit documentation for PedalPCB's clones of the original ODR-1 or BB, the number of component changes in the Protein is pretty low. So the innovation is really packing them together in one box and having the right styling and marketing.

Overdrive pedals are in this strange spot where various brands will continuously put out new drive pedals because that's the way to keep people talking about the brand. Compare this to say Analogman who has been doing their thing for a long time. They don't really pop up on forums other than people like their pedals and wonder about the waitlist stuff.

For most companies it's this constant battle to get people to buy your hype pedal of the week over someone else's. Most of the real innovation is in digital pedals.
 
I think the cheapo Amazon pedals can potentially lead to sales of the real deal too…. I know I bought one of the mxr timmys after having a caline pure sky for a bit.

Then I sold both because it’s an overrated circuit :cop
 
I have the demon FX 33 clone, but I was never going to shell out for the real thing. I do wish it wasn't as blatant a rip off though. It's even called "33" in the same font, but the numbers are backwards.

When I wanted to try out the precision drive clone, I got the joyo Argos pedal as it looks completely like it's own thing and isn't as blatant. Apart from it's features, there's nothing about it that references the real thing.
 
I think a key element missing from the discourse around copying pedals/amps/guitars is that their core market isn’t the US/UK/EU. A lot of Asian, African, and South American countries simply do not have access to name-brands for various reasons. Even if those brands are available, they are so overpriced and unattainable for ANYONE. Most working-musicians in these countries are barely able to afford Squiers and they spend their lives playing what some of us may consider “gateway” or “beginner” gear. This isn’t a “aha! I beat you” point against those who argue that these are not ethical products. But it’s just an aspect of the whole gear world that is almost never a part of the discussions around gear releases or business models.

EDIT: what I’m saying is that this gear is probably not for you. Calm down.
 
An electronic circuit itself is not patentable, but the idea of what you achieve with it may be.

For example, sound processing by Dolby was patented and licenses brought large revenue. In order to be successful in the enforcement of the patented idea, it has to be very simple and clear.
You don't do heavy metal in dubly!

 
Back
Top