Ok, time to solve this problem

[Jarick]

What makes the fender ""FRFR"" different than others?

Aside from the noise issue I mean

Caveat that I haven't used it, but all reports from users say it sounds a lot more like an amp than other "FRFR"'s. I believe that's likely due to the speaker selection and cabinet size/construction. Kind of a blend of a traditional PA speaker and a guitar amp. Maybe like the Friedman or Laney offerings as well.

 

[creative360]

I’ll just throw in there that we’ve been reading your posts about working specifically and regularly in theater productions as a multi-instrumentalist—not to mention amps "FRFR" direct fractal line6 kemper—for what five years now maybe more, so I’m guessing this is a thinking out loud kinda op, and what’s best in this kind of rehearsal scenario is something that we’ll all gain more insight into once you arrive at a satisfactory solution for yourself firsthand and then share it with us. Until then, Kemper + Kone? Kidding. Maybe.

 

[deathbyguitar]

Have you tried a coaxial "FRFR"? I find that they feel WAY more like real guitar speakers than speaker+tweeter desgins. I've compared my Xitones and Yamaha DHR12ms (both of which are coax) to standard PA speakers (Yamaha DXR12 MK II's) and there's no comparison. Coaxial or die.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Ultimately the main goal of the rehearsals is the music, but I have very little time to set up sounds for shows and so it is very helpful for me to also be able to use them as an opportunity to hear my tones in the context of the ensemble and take notes about what’s working and what’s not so I can make changes between rehearsals.

One instrument coming out of an ""FRFR"" just isn’t working for me when all the other instruments are either acoustic or coming through amps.

As an initial point -- let me just note that I'm not trying to diminish your frustration or desires here at all. Buuuuuut...

You're chasing your tail. You are using the rehearsal to adjust your tones in the context of an ensemble that is a bunch of acoustic instruments or instrument-amps...when the context of the gig is NOT going to be that. Dialing in an "FRFR" to blend with those sounds may be hard...but for precisely that reason, whatever you accomplish in the rehearsal is going to be mooted once those acoustic instruments and instrument-amps are mic'ed and run through "FRFR".

Are other members of the ensemble telling you they are having a hard time hearing you?

 

[creative360]

*ps voice recognition now puts “"FRFR"” in quotation marks —it’s finally learning!

 

[pipelineaudio]

Have you tried a coaxial ""FRFR""? I find that they feel WAY more like real guitar speakers than speaker+tweeter desgins. I've compared my Xitones and Yamaha DHR12ms (both of which are coax) to standard PA speakers (Yamaha DXR12 MK II's) and there's no comparison. Coaxial or die.

As much as I love my Altos, every time I borrow my cousin's Turbosounds, I get gear lust

 

[Stone]

From what I gather and read can't got wrong with the Fender "FRFR"
@JiveTurkey swears by it and he is a gigging musician so id put faith in that for sure
and its Inexpensive
From what I hear the Hiss is well exaggerated yes its there, strum a few chords and presto it gone lol

 

[metropolis_4]

Is there any easy way to have a room mic that feeds your in ears for rehearsals? In other words, you’re listening to the same ‘source’ in rehearsals as you are in performance. Doesn’t matter that the others aren’t on in ears as long as you are and you control the ratio of the room mic to your own signal feed…

That’s an interesting idea, I might have to think about that more. I’d still need to provide some way for them to hear me, but it wouldn’t be as important.

Here’s what I do:
I choose my 2 reference devices…those represent “the truth”, that’s what I dial my sounds on. If I don’t do that…I’ll go mad, keep dialing forever..counterproductive.
I use studio reference monitors for my cabsimmed sounds, and my fav tube powersection/cab for my stage sound.
I’m fully aware that PA/volume might require something different then reference monitors…but that’s something you do at the gig, at the desk…use of reference monitors give you the best middleground as a startingpoint.

I find a cabsim that matches my real cab as close as possible…and I apply that for all my sounds to foh.
Then I’ll dial in my sounds going back and forth between the 2 reference systems, play along with some tracks, use reference audio recordings for the cabsimmed sounds…at the end of which I have sounds that work on both my studio monitors, as well as my amp.

Then at the gig/rehearsal …offcourse everything is different…that’s how it works
First…I dial the global eq to compensate for the situation…if I monitor on cabs…I’ll leave cabsimmed sound alone…I assume there I did my homework right, and that the soundguy is capable.

Usually it’s “at good as it gets in the situation” then…if I need to do something in specific presets, I’ll make the change (assuming it works for foh)…and make a mental note to evaluate the change on my reference systems.

By doing so, I prioritize my monitor sound…but that’s all you can control. Hearing what the audience hears is an illusion..never gonna happen…and its irrelevant when you did your homework right, and you gave the soundguy something good to work with.
I put stage sound first cause thats my responsibility, and a requirement for the band to perform its best. maybe cause I play improvised music it weighs a little bit more, but I also believe it to be true for other styles. For foh…you do the best you can before the gig…but then it’s up to the tech.

That’s good advice. I have this fear of trusting the sound tech with FOH after having an experience where I accidentally dialed everything in super bright because my reference was too dark, and the sound tech assumed that’s how I wanted to sound so my tone was like an ice pick in FOH

Have you tried a coaxial ""FRFR""? I find that they feel WAY more like real guitar speakers than speaker+tweeter desgins. I've compared my Xitones and Yamaha DHR12ms (both of which are coax) to standard PA speakers (Yamaha DXR12 MK II's) and there's no comparison. Coaxial or die.

I have not, I’m intrigued now though. I’ll have to look into this more. Thanks!

As an initial point -- let me just note that I'm not trying to diminish your frustration or desires here at all. Buuuuuut...

You're chasing your tail. You are using the rehearsal to adjust your tones in the context of an ensemble that is a bunch of acoustic instruments or instrument-amps...when the context of the gig is NOT going to be that. Dialing in an ""FRFR"" to blend with those sounds may be hard...but for precisely that reason, whatever you accomplish in the rehearsal is going to be mooted once those acoustic instruments and instrument-amps are mic'ed and run through ""FRFR"".

Are other members of the ensemble telling you they are having a hard time hearing you?

Yeah, you’re not wrong, and I know to an extent I’m chasing my tail. I’ve done it enough to understand the limitations; I just have to be resourceful and try to get out of it what I can.

It’s still helpful for high level things like finding this section needs a heavier overdrive or a fuzz works better on this one than amp distortion or I’ll need a way to get high gain at a much softer volume here.

It’s also helpful to start learning the choreography of how to configure footswitches to give me access to everything I need, and when I need to coordinate hitting which switches

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

It’s still helpful for high level things like finding this section needs a heavier overdrive or a fuzz works better on this one than amp distortion or I’ll need a way to get high gain at a much softer volume here.

It’s also helpful to start learning the choreography of how to configure footswitches to give me access to everything I need, and when I need to coordinate hitting which switches

All of this stuff is definitely part of a rehearsal - but I would say is also pretty far removed from "I long for the simplicity of a tube rig where...I can't really do anything if I realize I need a different amp tone for this one part" and "I really prefer real cabs when playing with acoustic instruments/instrument amps".

I think whatever benefits you get from trying to go real cab with your modeler or whatever, are going to come back to bite you when you now have to move whatever you've done in that context back to "FRFR" context for the gig. Lean into the practice amp vibe is what I say!

 

[pipelineaudio]

And DEFINITELY remember the good ones and ask for them

 

[ragingplatypi]

If I were in your shoes I would do one of 2 things:
1) Comply Aware earbud tips. That way you can try out the ported IEM experience without spending too much $$$
2) Choose 3 monitor/"FRFR"/amp options, bring them all to rehearsal, pick the most satisfying, and return the other 2. I’ve used a bunch of different powered speakers and none of them work for every scenario. Find the one that works for this and don’t expect to keep it forever.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Is the noise issue with those real, or over-hyped?



Ultimately the main goal of the rehearsals is the music, but I have very little time to set up sounds for shows and so it is very helpful for me to also be able to use them as an opportunity to hear my tones in the context of the ensemble and take notes about what’s working and what’s not so I can make changes between rehearsals.

One instrument coming out of an ""FRFR"" just isn’t working for me when all the other instruments are either acoustic or coming through amps.

I honstely never heard it. They released their own fix on the new models (you can verify via serial) but the preamp Liam at FAS builds for it is KILLER!

 

[JiveTurkey]

How would a linear amp be less dynamic than a tube amp? The whole point of a tube amp according to the troo beliebers is to remove dynamics by being non linear

I might be talking out my ass There just isn't as much give between playing lightly and digging in vs. whatever tube amp I am using at a given moment.

 

[pipelineaudio]

That’s true like you can hear much more clean vs distortion on some tube or transistor circuits that are meant to be nonlinear. I think dynamic would be technically the wrong term for it but I think I know what you mean. Like being able to control the distortion with your volume like knob vs a much more linear or static distortion where turning down the volume just lowers the signal to noise ratio but doesn’t meaningfully lower the distortion.

It’s funny because you could say it’s more sensitive and yet it’s less of an actual SPL change than if it were a linear circuit.

We need a useful music thesaurus.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

typically using IEMs and everything goes direct

there are a few rehearsals where we’re set up in a room with no PA.

""FRFR""" sucks. It doesn’t work when I’m playing with other instruments that aren’t coming through a PA. I get buried in the mix and I’m somehow both too loud and too quiet at the same time. The frequency response is all wrong and it just doesn’t sit right in the mix.

It may suck, but it will work so you won't have to change much of anything on the front end, and it's just for a rehearsal, bring your IEMs like you would the gig.

Thinking about maybe going with a power amp and speaker cab? But I don’t want to have to dial in tones for both rehearsal and the show…


This is where I miss tube amps. It was so much easier to reach over and turn a couple knobs while playing to account for the room.

I’ve even thought this is where a Tone Master amp would make a lot of sense.

Don't over think it. You just need the ensemble to be able to hear you, everything else doesn't matter for the situation. Rent a wedge and get through it!

 

[2dor]

I had (and still do) the same problem since I started playing with a band back in spring this year.

What we're going to do sometime soon is get a small IEM rack (Behringer XR18, MIDAS DN4816-O) built and use that at band practice too.

For now, I'm using the Quad Cortex to route our guitars through it for some pedals, preamps and we go into the FX Returns of some tube amps the rehearsal space we play at has around (some crappy Marshall TSLs) - it works ok for now.

We decided to only route vocals through the PA at practice; when we routed guitars into the mixer along with vocals, it was very difficult to make things sit right in the space we rehearse, be as loud as the drummer and not feed back.

 

[metropolis_4]

All of this stuff is definitely part of a rehearsal - but I would say is also pretty far removed from "I long for the simplicity of a tube rig where...I can't really do anything if I realize I need a different amp tone for this one part" and "I really prefer real cabs when playing with acoustic instruments/instrument amps".

I think whatever benefits you get from trying to go real cab with your modeler or whatever, are going to come back to bite you when you now have to move whatever you've done in that context back to ""FRFR"" context for the gig. Lean into the practice amp vibe is what I say!

I’m not saying I long for the simplicity of a tube rig. Mostly I need to figure out a way to make a digital rig “sit” better with acoustic instruments and minimize the difference between the rehearsal and performance as much as possible (which I realize isn’t much)

I honstely never heard it. They released their own fix on the new models (you can verify via serial) but the preamp Liam at FAS builds for it is KILLER!

Where can I find info about what serial numbers to look for?

Also what is this preamp you speak of?

 

[deathbyguitar]

I’m not saying I long for the simplicity of a tube rig. Mostly I need to figure out a way to make a digital rig “sit” better with acoustic instruments and minimize the difference between the rehearsal and performance as much as possible (which I realize isn’t much)

How much do you EQ your digital rig? Like in terms of high pass, low pass, dipping out frequencies, ect.? From my experience, you can make a good "FRFR" speaker sound like basically anything. Also IR choice is extremely important

 

[pipelineaudio]

Where can I find info about what serial numbers to look for?

Also what is this preamp you speak of?

There's nothing magic about an "FRFR" just because it says "fender" on it. Its like the salseman at bestbuy telling you Marshall headphones make rock sound better because they say "Marshall" on them. Or that somehow slapping the name "Neve" on a standard TheSycon.de audio interface somehow makes it magic.

In fact that usually puts them BEHIND the curve...See Apogee's first forays into interfaces for instance.

We've already seen that in at least the noise parameter Fender is not better but worse than most of the cheapies

 

[metropolis_4]

There's nothing magic about an ""FRFR"" just because it says "fender" on it. Its like the salseman at bestbuy telling you Marshall headphones make rock sound better because they say "Marshall" on them. Or that somehow slapping the name "Neve" on a standard TheSycon.de audio interface somehow makes it magic.

In fact that usually puts them BEHIND the curve...See Apogee's first forays into interfaces for instance.

We've already seen that in at least the noise parameter Fender is not better but worse than most of the cheapies

I know, but there are differences in how all of them sound. And mine’s not working for me and someone who’s opinion I trust says this one is working for them so it might be worth trying it out and see if it works better for me than the one I have now

Whats keeping you from adding a guitarspeaker?
For reference…I got a superchamp x2 modded with a poweramp input, nice alnico speaker in it. Sounds great (if you don’t need chugga/big low end), small, offends no one

Nothing keeping me from it, that might be a good way to go!