Line 6 Helix Stadium

[Perrymusica]

Did they have to rework the IRs on the Stadium cabs? Or did they use the same impulse responses we have today? There are current cabs that I use regularly and think are very good, such as the Cali V30, Moon 75, the new Cartog, Jazz rivet, and the 4x10 US Super.

 

[bigmenace]

The more I look at these Stadium Tour videos the less I think about the competitors multi-fx units.
I have a very strict no preorders rule with everything but if I would allow one exception, this would be it.

 

[laxu]

The more I look at these Stadium Tour videos the less I think about the competitors multi-fx units.
I have a very strict no preorders rule with everything but if I would allow one exception, this would be it.

Yeah when it arrives a lot of the competition does not have an actually competing product. Let's take a look at the major players:

• Quad Cortex. Probably the closest competitor. But will not offer the same breadth of models, routing possibilities, anything like Focus view, Showcase features, footswitch programmability etc. On the plus side it is more compact, and supports captures already.
• Fractal Audio. Way, way behind on UI. Ahead in modeling and amount of models in each category. Possibly ahead in footswitch functionality.
• Fender Tone Master Pro. Hasn't moved forward that much since release. Way behind on the number of fx, routing, footswitching capabilities etc.
• Boss GT-1000/GX-100. Not even close.
• Kemper MK2. Not even close.
• Hotone Ampero 2. It's basically a Helix/QC copy in many ways, so the only plus is the smaller size and pricing.

That said, it heavily looks like Line6 has a pretty lengthy roadmap of features big and small that will happen only after release. I'm on the fence if I want to buy the smaller Stadium for Christmas or wait to see where it goes next year.

But realistically the two products I'm interested in are the HX Stadium and the BluGuitar Amp X. While I am certain the HX will be superior in so many ways to the BluGuitar...I still kinda want to see how it is because I genuinely enjoy both Amp 1 models so much, and have been playing traditional amp rigs a lot more lately.

 

[Orvillain]

Ahead in modeling

Very possibly not anymore.

 

[AlbertA]

Very possibly not anymore.

Oh do tell?

 

[Orvillain]

Oh do tell?

Line6 have built an entire new modelling engine. Stands to reason they've been comparing it to all of the competition. Helix already compares very favourably to Fractal. I can imagine any gap (real or perceived) will only shrink.

 

[AlbertA]

Line6 have built an entire new modelling engine. Stands to reason they've been comparing it to all of the competition. Helix already compares very favourably to Fractal. I can imagine any gap (real or perceived) will only shrink.

ahhh as in the future - sure could be. Only a few months to find out.

 

[mikah912]

Line6 have built an entire new modelling engine. Stands to reason they've been comparing it to all of the competition. Helix already compares very favourably to Fractal. I can imagine any gap (real or perceived) will only shrink.

I don't imagine it shrinking at all, and I say that as a huge fan of Helix modeling. Fractal fans will continue to stand on the huge swath of exclusive models like the Cameron Atomica/CCV, JVM 410H, Splawn Quickrod/Nitro, etc.

Cliff won't stand still and will redo his underlying modeling multiple times before, during and after the Agoura models continue to drop.

Honestly, I don't think it matters just like consensus thinking on Axe-FX III superiority did nothing to dent the sales success of the HX line.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Alright, I’ll post it.

“As guitarists, we live in interesting and exciting times!!”

 

[BenIfin]

I don't imagine it shrinking at all, and I say that as a huge fan of Helix modeling. Fractal fans will continue to stand on the huge swath of exclusive models like the Cameron Atomica/CCV, JVM 410H, Splawn Quickrod/Nitro, etc.

Cliff won't stand still and will redo his underlying modeling multiple times before, during and after the Agoura models continue to drop.

Honestly, I don't think it matters just like consensus thinking on Axe-FX III superiority did nothing to dent the sales success of the HX line.

Just my 2c

Purely from a sound and feel perspective in the last 2 years using my FM3, whatever Fractal has released has sounded and felt , i.m.h.o, very iterative in very minor jumps - putting aside all the sycophant comments on the FAS forum.

I would suggest an FM3 FW from 2 years ago will sound a little bit different to today but I would go so far as to say, in a blind test, no-one would reliably pick the difference.

I have no-idea what Fractal is planning, but a Company of their small size simply cannot get even remotely close to the feature set of Stadium for anything like that price .... and remember Agora isn't going to stand still either.

I also dont think that the "brains" at Fractal have more knowledge than the "brains" at L6 ..... this is the whole mythology that Fractal has and does rely on and subtly and sometimes not so subtly traded on.

With respect - that boat sailed a couple of years ago.

Hell, I spent about 2 weeks messing with an Ampero Stomp II 8 months ago and it can sound every bit as good as a Helix or FM3 - you could play "stadiums" [pardon the pun] with that unit and it will give you stunning tones.

The rusted on Fractal people will never move and have already been pre-emptivley shit-bagging Stadium - but they are a very vocal and loyal minority.

My guess is Agora / Stadium is definitely going to hurt Fractal in terms of their sales - plus they are also facing significant economic issues not of their making.

All just speccualtion of course.

 

[AZG]

Just my 2c

Purely from a sound and feel perspective in the last 2 years using my FM3, whatever Fractal has released has sounded and felt , i.m.h.o, very iterative in very minor jumps - putting aside all the sycophant comments on the FAS forum.

I would suggest an FM3 FW from 2 years ago will sound a little bit different to today but I would go so far as to say, in a blind test, no-one would reliably pick the difference.

I have no-idea what Fractal is planning, but a Company of their small size simply cannot get even remotely close to the feature set of Stadium for anything like that price .... and remember Agora isn't going to stand still either.

I also dont think that the "brains" at Fractal have more knowledge than the "brains" at L6 ..... this is the whole mythology that Fractal has and does rely on and subtly and sometimes not so subtly traded on.

With respect - that boat sailed a couple of years ago.

Hell, I spent about 2 weeks messing with an Ampero Stomp II 8 months ago and it can sound every bit as good as a Helix or FM3 - you could play "stadiums" [pardon the pun] with that unit and it will give you stunning tones.

The rusted on Fractal people will never move and have already been pre-emptivley shit-bagging Stadium - but they are a very vocal and loyal minority.

My guess is Agora / Stadium is definitely going to hurt Fractal in terms of their sales - plus they are also facing significant economic issues not of their making.

All just speccualtion of course.

While I agree that Fractals many updates are mostly iterative and small by themselves, I'm betting if you loaded up two FMx's, one with todays firmware and one from two years ago and A/B you would probably find the difference notable.

While I do have a Stadium XL on preorder, couldn't pass up 20% off, whether I keep it will largely come down to overall sound and feel quality. The UI looks like a nice refinement of the original Helix and the modeling improvements sound promising. But much of the Stadium is carried over from the original Helix good and bad. So while I would love a unit with a much better UI, I'm not sure I will be willing to give up Fractals massive high quality amp and effects library. Honestly I feel a little bit of deja vu from 10 years ago. Both companies have moved forward a lot, but they both still seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses. Not sure where I will end up this time round, but looking forward to giving the XL a go.

 

[Mongillo19]

I'm betting if you loaded up two FMx's, one with todays firmware and one from two years ago and A/B you would probably find the difference notable.

Agreed that it would probably be notable but I'm not sure id be able to say which is "better"?

 

[BenIfin]

Agreed that it would probably be notable but I'm not sure id be able to say which is "better"?

Yep. And not just that. If one didn't know which one was running the older FW, and just going back and forth, I would respectfully suggest the odd's of reliably picking which is which would be no better than random guessing.

 

[AZG]

Agreed that it would probably be notable but I'm not sure id be able to say which is "better"?

I've never done a A/B with a two year version of Fractal firmware so I can't say for sure if it's really better. But I can't help but think that touch/feel has gotten notably better over the past few years. Maybe placebo, but I do enjoy the tones/feel I get out of the FM3 more than ever today.

 

[Orvillain]

One of the things in the launch video that @Digital Igloo said was words to the effect of, sample accurate communication between the amp and cab block for speaker impedance curves.

That means - in my reading of it anyway - Agoura is powerful enough to communicate the individual sample-stream across blocks, rather than relying on block-based processing. Which means more accurate representation of signals from sample-buffer to sample-buffer.

In practical terms, this means the two blocks can communicate in "real-time" rather than waiting for the next processing buffer to finish before exchanging data.

Other systems process audio in fixed-size blocks, say 32, 64, or 128 samples at a time. That means the amp block would process its chunk of samples, then hand off the results to the cab block in the next cycle.

That tiny delay introduces latency and temporal “coarseness” in the interaction between the amp and cab, so the simulated impedance curve only updates once per buffer, not per individual sample.

So.... you can assume that Helix Stadium will be more precise AND more accurate than other "older" systems.

I suspect this would've been the big jump between Axe FX II and Axe FX III as well. But that's just a gut feeling thing.

 

[AlbertA]

One of the things in the launch video that @Digital Igloo said was words to the effect of, sample accurate communication between the amp and cab block for speaker impedance curves.

That means - in my reading of it anyway - Agoura is powerful enough to communicate the individual sample-stream across blocks, rather than relying on block-based processing. Which means more accurate representation of signals from sample-buffer to sample-buffer.

In practical terms, this means the two blocks can communicate in "real-time" rather than waiting for the next processing buffer to finish before exchanging data.

Other systems process audio in fixed-size blocks, say 32, 64, or 128 samples at a time. That means the amp block would process its chunk of samples, then hand off the results to the cab block in the next cycle.

That tiny delay introduces latency and temporal “coarseness” in the interaction between the amp and cab, so the simulated impedance curve only updates once per buffer, not per individual sample.

So.... you can assume that Helix Stadium will be more precise AND more accurate than other "older" systems.

I suspect this would've been the big jump between Axe FX II and Axe FX III as well. But that's just a gut feeling thing.

I think that's just reading too much into it.

It's likely just "Oh you switched to CAB X, ok yeah that has a SIC curve Y" in the power amp model. Amp simulation should be done with an ODE solver, which will have its own time step (not to mention running at the oversampling rate).

 

[AZG]

One of the things in the launch video that @Digital Igloo said was words to the effect of, sample accurate communication between the amp and cab block for speaker impedance curves.

That means - in my reading of it anyway - Agoura is powerful enough to communicate the individual sample-stream across blocks, rather than relying on block-based processing. Which means more accurate representation of signals from sample-buffer to sample-buffer.

In practical terms, this means the two blocks can communicate in "real-time" rather than waiting for the next processing buffer to finish before exchanging data.

Other systems process audio in fixed-size blocks, say 32, 64, or 128 samples at a time. That means the amp block would process its chunk of samples, then hand off the results to the cab block in the next cycle.

That tiny delay introduces latency and temporal “coarseness” in the interaction between the amp and cab, so the simulated impedance curve only updates once per buffer, not per individual sample.

So.... you can assume that Helix Stadium will be more precise AND more accurate than other "older" systems.

I suspect this would've been the big jump between Axe FX II and Axe FX III as well. But that's just a gut feeling thing.

It will be interesting to see the end results. Listening to what has been released so far it largely sounds like they are upgrading their modeling engine to be very similar to what Fractal has been doing for years. I expect it will sound and feel better than the original Helix, but will it match or overtake the competition? Guess we will know more in a few months.

 

[Sascha Franck]

but will it match or overtake the competition?

As long as it's "close enough" (whatever that might mean for whomever), IMO there's more than enough pretty compelling reasons to go for a Stadium instead of whatever competitor's products. The general featureset (outside of any sound related things) presented so far to us mere mortals is absolutely outstanding already and I'd bet we'll see much more coming.

I said so before, in terms of onboard editing, this will likely mop the floor with anything else out there, then there's a whole lotta things that seem to be incredibly well thought out already (such as the output mixer), so if you're looking for a killer allround unit, these things will have to be taken into consideration by pretty much anyone interested in modelers.

I'm quite sure that there will still be people prefering FAS products for the variety of amps, their tweakability and what not, but for most people, a good assortment of great sounding amps (being able to compete with the best) should be sufficient - and at that point, other aspects will likely become more important for many folks.

 

[Mongillo19]

I've never done a A/B with a two year version of Fractal firmware so I can't say for sure if it's really better. But I can't help but think that touch/feel has gotten notably better over the past few years. Maybe placebo, but I do enjoy the tones/feel I get out of the FM3 more than ever today.

Oh for sure. I'm not trying to knock cliffs work. If anything, it shows the fractal line has been fantastic for years and at this point, I have to think we are hitting diminishing returns. But I'm sure that's what they said for color TV

 

[Orvillain]

I think that's just reading too much into it.

It's likely just "Oh you switched to CAB X, ok yeah that has a SIC curve Y" in the power amp model. Amp simulation should be done with an ODE solver, which will have its own time step (not to mention running at the oversampling rate).

I strongly suspect you are wrong.

It’s not just about the amp “loading” the right static impedance curve when you switch cabs.

Sample-accurate communication strongly implies that the amp and cab blocks are exchanging data on a per-sample basis during processing, not just referencing a fixed curve.

Even if the amp modeling itself is running with its own internal solver at an oversampled rate, in a traditional block-based DSP chain that solver only sees the load update once per buffer - say, every 64 samples. This results in a coarsening of the data, and thus less precision.

If Agoura eliminates that buffer-level latency, so the solver is aware of the instantaneous state of the cab/impedance at every single sample. That allows tighter, more accurate interaction between the virtual power amp and speaker model. This is a crucial improvement when it comes to the final tone and the non-linear processes that produce it.