Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[Chocol8]

If NAM has more aliasing, how can it NULL significantly better?

Please tell me you are not a real engineer. Leo's null tests are not at all valid. If you don't understand that you are lost.

 

[EOengineer]

Please tell me you are not a real engineer. Leo's null tests are not at all valid. If you don't understand that you are lost.

Let’s not forget that forums are frequently a vector for folks who are learning and ramping up on various topics. We’re not all experts on every topic.

 

[Chocol8]

Let’s not forget that forums are frequently a vector for folks who are learning and ramping up on various topics. We’re not all experts on every topic.

This topic has been covered heavily and very recently. I would not expect the average guitarist or even the average forum member to understand the topic, but if you are an engineer and following the topic, it shouldn’t take very long to see the major problems with what Leo is doing.

 

[StarF666]

My patches are pretty simple most of the times so not a major issue for me
Gate --> Drive --> Amp --> Cab/IR --> Delay --> Verb

Maybe some modulation but rarely

Funny enough that's also true for me but I usually try to cram everything for a gig into a single kitchen sink preset. That's why I also like the idea of global blocks so I could use presets more.

 

[Hapless]

This topic has been covered heavily and very recently. I would not expect the average guitarist or even the average forum member to understand the topic, but if you are an engineer and following the topic, it shouldn’t take very long to see the major problems with what Leo is doing.

According to his comment section, he's doing the Lord's work.

 

[EOengineer]

This topic has been covered heavily and very recently. I would not expect the average guitarist or even the average forum member to understand the topic, but if you are an engineer and following the topic, it shouldn’t take very long to see the major problems with what Leo is doing.

Ok.

Sorry @OneEng apparently the answer to your question is that you need to go refresh your engineering degree. I hope that’s helpful enough.

Otherwise, you might want to check out some of the other death matches we’ve had on the topic. This one is a fun read.

Thread 'Null Tests'

Apr 11, 2025

We've all had our experiences with gazillions of plugins, modelers and different profiler platforms.

I think there's a trap to think someone can measure what's the best sound. But I'd rather use my fingers and my ears to judge.

I came to the Kemper (Stage) quite late. Had tried one 10 years ago and found it horrible, muffled and dead sounding. But the quality of their profiling, the effects and how well people manage to profile amps, as well as the Liquid Profile format, have changed this thing drastically for the better. Got one last year it just sounds and feels addictive and makes...

• hunter
• Replies: 103
• Forum: Digital & Modeling

 

[Enchilada Jones]

The priest doesn’t care if the sermon was accurate and doesn’t prove he is doing gods work as long as the congregation is growing it *must be* gods work.
Like, subscribe and ring that bell!

 

[OneEng]

2 key takeaways that I see:
-aside from any numerical testing, there were still audible differences which we know L6 is actively working on
-integrate NAM into the Stadium to cover all angles

But how does it sound/feel to the ears, that SHOULD be the only thing that matters to each individual. I wondered as an outside observer how the L6 would take his testing. As a Fractal/KPP V2/soon Sonulab, I really could give a sh*t about this testing. It's meaningless to my ability to enjoy any of this gear. Stadium owners, just enjoy making music!

I agree. My only point is the gross hypocrisy on display.

Please tell me you are not a real engineer. Leo's null tests are not at all valid. If you don't understand that you are lost.

First, read my comment above.

My point is clear. If Null Tests are a good metric as vehemently defended in these forums by a butt ton of people, and accuracy is the definitive deciding factor for purchasing one of these devices, then Proxy deserves Kemper like treatment here from the masses.

As is well documented by my many posts, I am not one who believes this at all. In fact, I think that Stadium is a poster child for my beliefs on the subject.

Trying to make the same argument with Kemper always got diluted by the fact the unit is using a GUI from the mid 80s and has a very dated routing capability.

Stadium is a much better product to defend my point with.

So, do you own a Stadium then?

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

if you are an engineer and following the topic, it shouldn’t take very long to see the major problems with what Leo is doing.

Provided that you're not a chemical engineer. Or drive trains.

 

[dean701]

This is the age of misinformation. Authentication is no longer a prerequisite. People will believe anything if the same misinformation is populated everywhere. IMO Leo's video will hurt Stadium sales and the only viable recourse is to add NAM. It ends all comparison bullshit.

 

[[Nathan]]

My point is clear. If Null Tests are a good metric as vehemently defended in these forums by a butt ton of people, and accuracy is the definitive deciding factor for purchasing one of these devices, then Proxy deserves Kemper like treatment here from the masses.

Isn’t the overwhelming rhetoric here that null tests are NOT a good metric to use, therefore it’s all kind of nonsense. Who’s defending them here saying they’re the thing to use?

 

[JiveTurkey]

Guitar playing is visceral. There is science behind it but I don't care as long as the results are pleasing. I know; some people certainly do and that is ok. As well as how the tech moves forward. Throwing a Powercab-style red herring on top of that is definitely the turd icing.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

.

Here are reamps of the Rockerverb HX (in Stadium), Agora and a Clone. Had to increase the gain on the Clone.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Nice one for doing this.

The old and new models sound quite different with the new one being way more scooped. I want to say that the old model sounds more like the Proxy capture here - there's a kind of nasal/forward midrange thing on those, where the Agoura model sounds more scooped (and gainy and bassy) by comparison. The old Helix model definitely has some "legacy" characteristics in the gain that the Agoura model improves on (the character of the gain is nicer and more dynamic). No idea what accounts for the old and new models sound different in their voicing. Would love to know what these differences are down to.

 

[EOengineer]

Isn’t the overwhelming rhetoric here that null tests are NOT a good metric to use, therefore it’s all kind of nonsense. Who’s defending them here saying they’re the thing to use?

Sentiment definitely seems negative but my possibly flawed memory is that we’ve migrated position over time. When Tonex first arrived everyone and their mother had null tests happening.

 

[Mooselake]

Provided that you're not a chemical engineer. Or drive trains.

I was a junior in engineering school when I figured out there would be no train driving in the curriculum. Stuck with it anyway, ha. Despite that academic background, I don't see a ton of utility in trying to boil something like a guitar amp capture process down to a single number to compare across different devices. I don't begrudge anyone interested in such things, or comforted by them. I've never paid any attention to what Leo does, I'm just not interested, so I dunno if he's doing things rightly or wrongly, or doing the right or wrong things to start with. I have a Stadium to listen to and I just roll with that. I haven't messed with proxy yet. At some point I might download a clone to check out, but once I learned that a Proxy instance is as DSP intensive as a full up Agoura model, my envisioned use for it withered on the vine (I'd hoped that maybe taking snapshots of an Agoura model set a certain way and substituting the clone to get an essentially equivalent tone for a little less DSP).

 

[madmarcus1960]

I agree. My only point is the gross hypocrisy on display.


So, do you own a Stadium then?

I hope you're not referring to me, and no I have no plans to own a Stadium. AXE3, KPP, Sonulab Pro, and Tonex. I think I'm spread around enough.

 

[Orvillain]

I don't understand the claim of hypocrisy? How? Where? Why? Whom? Whattt??

 

[Orvillain]

Isn’t the overwhelming rhetoric here that null tests are NOT a good metric to use, therefore it’s all kind of nonsense. Who’s defending them here saying they’re the thing to use?

Null tests ARE perfectly reasonable, usable, and the correct tool, depending on the question you are trying to ask.

If you're asking: "are these two signals either exactly the same, or very close?" then yes, correct tool.
If you're asking: "does this clone of a reference system exhibit the same behaviour as the reference system?" then no, they're not the correct tool. At most they're one tool in an entire subset of tools. But they cannot answer that question alone, and you cannot answer that question within a single proximity or distance based metric.

This aint Euclid's brothel. We don't use measuring sticks here.

 

[OneEng]

Isn’t the overwhelming rhetoric here that null tests are NOT a good metric to use, therefore it’s all kind of nonsense. Who’s defending them here saying they’re the thing to use?

If "here" is defined as in this thread, then yes. If "here" is including other threads (including Kemper where the device was eviscerated largely based on NULL testing), then no. Not to my recollection.

Guitar playing is visceral. There is science behind it but I don't care as long as the results are pleasing. I know; some people certainly do and that is ok. As well as how the tech moves forward. Throwing a Powercab-style red herring on top of that is definitely the turd icing.

I strongly agree with this. There are many more important features that these devices should be evaluated for outside of accuracy .... and honestly ..... if you have ANY difficulty picking out the real thing in a blind recording test then it is obviously accurate enough in my book. Then its time to look at other considerations based in what a user needs out of the rig.

Sentiment definitely seems negative but my possibly flawed memory is that we’ve migrated position over time. When Tonex first arrived everyone and their mother had null tests happening.

My flawed memory matches yours.

I actually think that Stadium is the best of breed in the vast majority of categories and use cases at this time, but I think it is fair that ToneX and other NAM offerings get the nod for accuracy. It seems silly to flip the script to me.

As for Stadium losing sales due to Leo's video, possibly some, but nothing significant IMO. It's a really great product. Perhaps Stadium is exactly what the industry needed in order to get over this obsession on accuracy. It has so many great features that I think it is a crying shame to spend a single minute discussing any minor capture accuracy discrepancies from ToneX or any other NAM player.

It is laughable for me for ANY NAM player to be discussed in the same sentence as Stadium, Kemper, and Fractal offerings .... all of which have dozens of strengths for live use that totally eclipse any NAM player on the market by huge margins.

I've never put my hands on one personally, but the one in Leo's video looked like someone put a bunch of knobs on an off-the-shelf aluminum box.

 

[Orvillain]

If "here" is defined as in this thread, then yes. If "here" is including other threads (including Kemper where the device was eviscerated largely based on NULL testing), then no. Not to my recollection.

I realise you have me on ignore, and can't take the heat. Quite why you'd hang out in the kitchen then, is anyone's guess.

But no, that is definitely not my recollection in the Kemper thread. In fact, I can't remember a single time that I nor anyone else posted a NULL test. A/B comparisons, sure. Not a NULL test.