Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[EOengineer]

Here's a question. Speaks to @sashimi observation "It's always the high gain guys". To which I say it does seem this way. And I'm as high gain as they come I don't recall ever hearing about any of the Fender/jugband guitar amps having issues. Other than @EOengineer comments on the early clips of some Fender Reverb thing (?) gain range being off early on in this thread? Is it just a what the developers ears are tuned to thing? Seems like all the Tweeds and other Fender style stuff gets great praise. It is definitely a high gain guy thing if we're going by that.

I’ve used the 2203 and IIC+ 95% of my playtime on Stadium. The Plexi was an immediate crash and burn for me. The Fenders felt a lot better in the midrange but kinda had the same dead top end thing I get from Amplitube and V1 Tonex. I’ve not circled back to dig deeper. I do own a 70s deluxe reverb and Princeton Reverb and will likely dig in to compare after I get through comparing the 2203 against my 2204.

 

[mikah912]

And he'll probably smack me on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

He's not that type either. Line 6 has my highest respect for taking years and years of criticism head-on, and not reflexively stomping their feet and standing pat when people talk about the cabs, or lack of bright cap or a bunch of other things they've addressed over the years.

 

[Dimiguitar]

I’ve used the 2203 and IIC+ 95% of my playtime on Stadium. The Plexi was an immediate crash and burn for me. The Fenders felt a lot better in the midrange but kinda had the same dead top end thing I get from Amplitube and V1 Tonex. I’ve not circled back to dig deeper. I do own a 70s deluxe reverb and Princeton Reverb and will likely dig in to compare after I get through comparing the 2203 against my 2204.

Really glad IK (largely) fixed the top end issue btw. V2 feels spectacular.

I would imagine proxy to be competitive (I sure hope the high end isn't tamed).

Then people can make captures of real amps.

 

[sashimi]

Here's a question. Speaks to @sashimi observation "It's always the high gain guys". To which I say it does seem this way. And I'm as high gain as they come I don't recall ever hearing about any of the Fender/jugband guitar amps having issues. Other than @EOengineer comments on the early clips of some Fender Reverb thing (?) gain range being off early on in this thread? Is it just an what the developers ears are tuned to thing? Seems like all the Tweeds and other Fender style stuff gets great praise. It is definitely a high gain guy thing if we're going by that.

And I could be totally wrong on that, I haven’t been following modeling discussions in forums for as long as many of you, I’ve only been interested in this for the past few years. I do see people saying EOB is the hardest thing to model, maybe that is correct or it was in earlier modeling days? OG helix does EOB well in my experience, with the models I use anyway, but I started using Helix at firmware 3.5 I think. But since I have been reading these discussions it seems like the high gain amps and players are always the squeaky wheel.

 

[OG-T]

If we are going to chalk these differences up to variances in the actual modeled amps, then why is it that the Fractal models so consistently resemble the real amp clips while Agoura is consistently divergent from both the real amp AND the Fractal models? Are we to believe that Fractal just happens to choose amps that sound like the amps us forum members own while L6 has totally different sounding versions?

This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Screw settings, can you dial it in to sound similar? That's what matters.

 

[Mongillo19]

Screw settings, can you dial it in to sound similar? That's what matters.

No it isn't. What if it takes the treble to be on max for it to match the real amp. You've exhausted the full range of the model when on the real thing, it's at 6.

 

[laxu]

I think the bugs have been more of a reason to as why some have felt inclined to jump ships, but I also can't see it not affecting some on the fence. As some one who gets immense enjoyment out of Stadium, it's sad to see, but quite a few of the ones leaving now, will be back again when the platform matures.

As a fence sitter, I'm pretty firmly in the "Do I need this? Why not just wait and see where it goes" for pretty much all modelers on the market atm.

It kinda sucks to be an early adopter of any software product as there will be bugs.

At the same time, I've got great pedals and amps, and don't need a huge variety of stuff.

 

[OG-T]

No it isn't. What if it takes the treble to be on max for it to match the real amp. You've exhausted the full range of the model when on the real thing, it's at 6.

Then that's what it takes. Who cares? Dial in with your ears.

 

[ccc118]

No it isn't. What if it takes the treble to be on max for it to match the real amp. You've exhausted the full range of the model when on the real thing, it's at 6.

It could help identify why it's off though. It could be that there's something going on with one of the EQ sliders for example. If it still can't be dialed in to sound close, then I guess there's another issue going on.

 

[GLiDE-BPM]

Is the Stadium missing 12dB of gain?

And here is the story: I have both a Stadium XL (long time OG Floor user) and an AM4 (just to see, how good FAS really is). Over the last weeks I swapped back and forth between both units and I somehow gravitated towards the AM4. It just sounded bolder, ballsier, rawer. The Stadium felt more polite, hi-fi but a tad lifeless. I just used a single model of a 5F6A Bassman to not get distracted by switching between to much stuff. I know the (real) amp pretty well. I used the same IR (Amalgam MAGN DUSK MIX) on both units to rule out the cab.

So after all the comparisions on what model sounds "more realer" on which unit, I set both units' models to the same settings and realized the AM4 had more gain at the same settings. Still curious I hooked up the AM4 via SPDIF after the Stadium. When bypassing all blocks on the Stadium and with all other parameters set to default on both units, especially all gains and levels, the AM4 suddenly lacked a lot of gain. I double checked by going direct to the AM4 input. I had to add a +12dB gain block to the input of the Stadium to get the AM4 to sound like going direct into the AM4. With that +12dB boost on the Stadium I was able to dial in both Bassman models very close to each other. Without the boost, both models sounded equally weak. The difference in sound an feel of both units was much smaller when going through the Stadiums input. Interestingly the input meter on the AM4 showed quite high levels when going through SPDIF even without the boost.

So my question is: Does the Stadium (and probably OG Helix) has too low internal levels or has Fractal (at least the AM4) to high internal levels? Or what am I missing? Feel free to try that setup if you have both units.

All of the amp models just about were set way below 0dB on the Volume level for the amp blocks. I saved all of them with the Volume set to 0dB and it had proper output to my mixer channel it's plugged into. Some amp models were a little higher setting, but just as quiet and had to be set to somewhere around +3-+6dB for the block Volume. I still have PLENTY of headroom with those settings!

 

[OG-T]

It could help identify why it's off though. It could be that there's something going on with one of the EQ sliders for example. If it still can't be dialed in to sound close, then I guess there's another issue going on.

In the Before Times, when I would tour and need backline, I always asked for two of whatever amp I was using for the gig. Reason being you could get two absolutely identical amps that sounded totally different. So I would take the one that sounded closest to what I wanted, then dial it in with my ears to get it there. I'm betting that there's nothing wrong with anyone's modeling. Just models of physical amps that sound different.

 

[JiveTurkey]

How come no one ever uses the "Fractal just has a different amp" excuse?

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I'm betting that there's nothing wrong with anyone's modeling. Just models of physical amps that sound different.

Is this based on blind faith, or actually comparing?

Several people here have compared several amp models against their own - the differences are consistent. I’m all for being challenged on the accuracy discussions, but provide the same kind of data that the other side is giving.

 

[OG-T]

How come no one ever uses the "Fractal just has a different amp" excuse?

They do, and on the clips posted all the fractal ones sounded closer but not exact to the original.

 

[Dez]

Then that's what it takes. Who cares? Dial in with your ears.

What if full blasting treble isn't enough and then you have no more room? That doesn't frustrate you?

 

[EOengineer]

How come no one ever uses the "Fractal just has a different amp" excuse?

Is this based on blind faith, or actually comparing?

Several people here have compared several amp models against their own - the differences are consistent. I’m all for being challenged on the accuracy discussions, but provide the same kind of data that the other side is giving.

At this point I think you’re giving too much credit to someone who is obviously trolling.

The methodology has been covered, we’ve been consistent within reason, and Stadium exhibits the same type of deviation across multiple comparisons of different amps. The similarities between the Fractal and real amp tracks help provide a reliable control.

To use the “different models” comparison as a scapegoat someone would have to explain how Fractal managed to acquire and model amps that sound so close to our physical examples while L6 ended up with an inventory of unicorns. I already made that point and it was dodged because this poster is not debating in good faith.

 

[OG-T]

Is this based on blind faith, or actually comparing?

This is based on a lifetime of professional guitar playing, that multiple versions of the same can and do sound different. Have you never had a friend with a "magical amp" that just sounds better than yours?

I guess folks around here would have to have friends for that...

 

[EOengineer]

This is based on a lifetime of professional guitar playing, that multiple versions of the same can and do sound different. Have you never had a friend with a "magical amp" that just sounds better than yours?

I guess folks around here would have to have friends for that...

I’m sorry we hurt your feelings.

 

[Dez]

This is based on a lifetime of professional guitar playing, that multiple versions of the same can and do sound different. Have you never had a friend with a "magical amp" that just sounds better than yours?

I guess folks around here would have to have friends for that...

A: Me not having friends is a feature by design

B: You obviously have to recognize consistent testing and observations with these posts that clearly aren't "one amp vs another" it's a blanket thing that can be replicated.

C: You sound like a boomer

 

[OG-T]

At this point I think you’re giving too much credit to someone who is obviously trolling.

The methodology has been covered, we’ve been consistent within reason, and Stadium exhibits the same type of deviation across multiple comparisons of different amps. The similarities between the Fractal and real amp tracks help provide a reliable control.

To use the “different models” comparison as a scapegoat someone would have to explain how Fractal managed to acquire and model amps that sound so close to our physical examples while L6 ended up with an inventory of unicorns. I already made that point and it was dodged because this poster is not debating in good faith.

Not trolling, dead serious. I'm not even using L6 for my amp tones, I'm using Tonex. I really don't care because I'm happy with what I have. What I'm saying is you can't compare different models with the same settings.