Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[GLiDE-BPM]

Love my Stadium so far, and am looking forward to the other promised features like Proxy.
However, I have been enjoying the living heck out of V2 captures on my used QC!!!
I've got an 8 scene kitchen sink preset with 8 V2 captures for the 8 scenes and all my
usual 4 Rung Super Serial effects blocks, etc.

Still getting some time on my priceless Axe FX/FM9 presets. I haven't built a preset from scratch on Fractal toys in quite
awhile! Love my current presets too much on them!

 

[GLiDE-BPM]

I’m wondering if I should just get the XL. It’s not that big, and the expression pedal is a lot nicer than I thought it was going to be. A big improvement over the Floor/LT.

It is definitely not that big at all! You should see my giant FM9 pedalboard... LoL!!!

 

[paisleywookiee]

It is definitely not that big at all! You should see my giant FM9 pedalboard... LoL!!!

I'm not doing anything until I think about it a bit. I'm just going to give it until the Stadium comes out, and deciding then.

 

[Dimiguitar]

To sit there with no way to reference the source amp and say that they did something wrong just doesn’t add up to me.

We don't have a way to reference amp sims if, for example, that means having the same exact amp, in the exact same condition.

But the general case made here (correct me if wrong) seems to be there's a trend among several high gain stadium amp sims where some high end is missing.

I think that's a stronger claim.

It's a bit like having a cut for frequencies below 100hz. Do we need to have the exact amps a company based their modelling on, to know this doesn't tend to happen in the analog world?

Especially not as a trend, when this difference seems to appear in multiple sims. What are the chances these amps a company owns all (or many) exhibit similar such differences compared to what people typically expect from the real amps?

So I am not sure amp variation explains the differences people see here. It would be surprising to me. But who knows -- it's hard to be certain.

 

[HotRats]

If several people can all hear it on soundcloud in a single pass then it’s clear enough? Several people mentioned the top end as the main difference - either a difference can be heard or it can’t.

As I said already, I think whether it matters or not is open to debate, and a subjective matter for each individual. However, there is no debate that Agoura sounds less bright in your examples, or any of the others that have been posted.

As I've clearly stated before, those who believe that Agoura modelling is darker by nature might be right, there are Agoura demos on you tube that seems to show that behavior.

But Karl's clips can't tell us nothing about it.

One of the clip is slightly brighter or the other is slightly darker, depending on how you want so see it.

(and there's also a difference in the low end)

Without a reference point, aka the amps being modeled, we can't draw any conclusion based on those clips.

To use those clips as a data point for the argument of Agoura being darker, we have assume that fractal model is more accurate and that's a strong assumption, and that the amps being modeled are identical.

Are these a legit assumptions?
It might be that fractal is more accurate, given the history of fractal modelling, but is an assumptions nonetheless.

Dying on Karl's clips hill seems a bit a classic case of confirmation bias, If I may.

The only thing that Karl's clips tell us without assuming things is that fractal and Agoura model sound really close to each other with those settings.

I understand and relate to your passion for sounds and all but man, you should just relax and wait. Time will tell the whole story.

 

[Orvillain]

Aren’t you jumping to conclusions though, assuming this is an anti aliasing filtering or modeling accuracy problem and not just two different amps being modeled? The difference between the two clips is so minute that it could easily just be the difference between two examples of the exact same amp, due to component value inconsistencies, right? Or even just slightly different tone settings or variations in pot values? Why assume that this is a problem with the way Line 6 is modeling the amps? Don’t you think they already did tons of listening tests to make sure the model perfectly matches the source amp?

To sit there with no way to reference the source amp and say that they did something wrong just doesn’t add up to me. Everyone knows even two examples of the exact same guitar/amp/microphone etc can and will sound slightly different, which is why I kind of roll my eyes at the whole modeling accuracy obsession at this point.

The word "if" in my original post makes this entire response baseless. I did not jump to any conclusions. I posited a theory; based on knowledge of how DSP systems work.

Dying on Karl's clips hill seems a bit a classic case of confirmation bias, If I may.

No. You may not. Because nobody is doing that. I own the bloody thing!!

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I'm not going to bother to post my compare of that amp. I'm hearing it here as spot on between platforms with the same exact settings. But my hearing is obviously compromised.

Yeah who needs audio? We can just take your word for it. Amp is nailed, the old Helix 5153 model was wrong, case closed. I’m not saying your hearing is compromised but your definition for spot on might be loose.

not just two different amps being modeled? The difference between the two clips is so minute that it could easily just be the difference between two examples of the exact same amp, due to component value inconsistencies, right? Or even just slightly different tone settings or variations in pot values? Why assume that this is a problem with the way Line 6 is modeling the amps? Don’t you think they already did tons of listening tests to make sure the model perfectly matches the source amp?

It’s quite telling with Agoura because we already had models from the previous generation of the exact same reference amps, with the exact same pots modelled and they matched closely to the hardware and made it through the same quality control with Line 6. The old models don’t suffer the lack of top end that’s in Agoura. If it was a random tolerance variation, some amps would be brighter, some darker. When they are consistently darker across the board, then it’s not just random variation.

Karl won’t post clips because for whatever reason, having objective data is some kind of issue. It’s very easy to compare the old 5153, new 5153, OG amp and Fractal. We’ve already been through this with @deadpan’s reamps in this thread. Do we just dismiss those examples and just take Karl’s word for it?

 

[Orvillain]

I'm not going to bother to post my compare of that amp. I'm hearing it here as spot on between platforms with the same exact settings. But my hearing is obviously compromised.

I love how you piss take about people having "golden ears" and when someone gives you a taste of your own medicine, you cry. I love it. Love it love it love it!!

 

[Sascha Franck]

and when someone gives you a taste of your own medicine, you cry.

You should look into a mirror every now and then, too.

 

[bucephalus]

JFC. Are you a mirror salesman?

 

[MIJLOVER]

Yeah who needs audio? We can just take your word for it. Amp is nailed, the old Helix 5153 model was wrong, case closed. I’m not saying your hearing is compromised but your definition for spot on might be loose.


It’s quite telling with Agoura because we already had models from the previous generation of the exact same reference amps, with the exact same pots modelled and they matched closely to the hardware and made it through the same quality control with Line 6. The old models don’t suffer the lack of top end that’s in Agoura. If it was a random tolerance variation, some amps would be brighter, some darker. When they are consistently darker across the board, then it’s not just random variation.

Karl won’t post clips because for whatever reason, having objective data is some kind of issue. It’s very easy to compare the old 5153, new 5153, OG amp and Fractal. We’ve already been through this with @deadpan’s reamps in this thread. Do we just dismiss those examples and just take Karl’s word for it?

First of all, I just wanna say I respect your inputs and your observations and the ones made by @Deadpan and @Orvillain will likely have Line 6 looking into this stuff.

But there’s one thing that’s curious to me. Yesterday, I sat with the IIC+ and started with the eq dials and presence at 5 on the clean channel and it was too bright for my taste on my Revstar middle position. On the bridge pickup it was ice pick territory. Didn’t even have my guitar tone knob dimed.

I the switched some mics, cabs and tried some different IRs and they of course made a huge difference.

So could it be something related to the cab/impedance? Or only affect some of the amps? I guess I could test some against HX in Native or even in the ones in Stadium?

 

[Orvillain]

So could it be something related to the cab/impedance

Yep. That's another good area of investigation.

Another one might be the poweramp modelling. With a real valve amp if you crank the master volume, you lose high frequencies. I only started to appreciate just how powerful this effect is when I began using loadboxes. Through a real cab, you never go into that territory really, because it is just too damn loud. But it becomes very obvious when you use a loadbox.

So if there's a bug in the poweramp modelling that is pushing too much signal in one part of the schematic, that could account for this.

I've definitely noticed that if I keep the master below 2 or so on most of the high-gain amps, the amp produces more high-frequency content at its output.

It could also be a combination of any of these things. Or something completely different.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

So could it be something related to the cab/impedance? Or only affect some of the amps? I guess I could test some against HX in Native or even in the ones in Stadium?

Cabs, I don’t think so because all of these tests have been done with matching cabs or IR’s. There was a bug in Stadium with multiple cabs IIRC but I don’t think that’s what’s going on here.

With impedance, it’s harder to tell. When the presence is extremely low there’s more negative feedback so the amplifier model is more damped. With the presence opened up, the influence of the SIC will be greater. I’m not sure what settings Karl used in his word-of-mouth testing, but if the presence is low like it was on his IIC+ test, it might point towards something with the SIC. I don’t think it’s (just) that though although I would like some more specific information on how Helix uses SIC’s.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

JFC. Are you a mirror salesman?

I remember at TOP getting called out for saying ToneX (on launch) wasn’t nailing the top and bottom end. Quite amusing when V2 comes along and all of a sudden everyone unanimously agrees that it sounds and feels noticeably better. Similar things have happened with the TMP, Fractal and other Helix amp models (like the Invective having bugs). Usually it results in a bug fix and every wins (DI has already said they’re going to take a look at the 5150).

It happens all the time - first there is denial, then once it’s fixed the tide changes.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

JFC. Are you a mirror salesman?

 

[Orvillain]

I remember at TOP getting called out for saying ToneX (on launch) wasn’t nailing the top and bottom end. Quite amusing when V2 comes along and all of a sudden everyone unanimously agrees that it sounds and feels noticeably better. Similar things have happened with the TMP, Fractal and other Helix amp models (like the Invective having bugs). Usually it results in a bug fix and every wins (DI has already said they’re going to take a look at the 5150).

It happens all the time - first there is denial, then once it’s fixed the tide changes.

You could practically set your Alibaba smart mirror with AI calendar, weather, and life-insurance reminder schedule, by this cycle. (Only $99!)

 

[Dimiguitar]

Is that a trend that comes from people who have actually played the unit or just people listening to clips online? Because I’d argue that the Agoura amps are brighter than their HX counterparts.

About myself, I don't have clips to show atm, neither own a stadium. But I've had one over and made EQ matches to test at least some of the gainy sims.

One would have to take my word for it -- and they don't have to -- but there was a consistent lack of high end in these tests vs fractal and captures I've tested to hell and back for accuracy.

I think part of why people care is there's already a very good baseline for these line 6 sims. When you see that, but spot an issue (whether it's caused by amp sims, impedance, some bug, etc), you kinda want to see the perceived problem solved.

That's how I feel, at least.

 

[Dimiguitar]

I think on guitar forums, it is always a pejorative.

First time I noticed this was on Kemper forum, where the reaction of some dudes was to mock whomever said they felt and/or heared differences vs real amps.

Yet now CK says profiling 2.0 has "much more accurate low end". So I guess some people with "golden ears" got something right all along. And these innacuracies are now heard by CK too.

Besides, when someone claims there's no "difference" between amp and capture or model, say in terms of EQ, that can also take a discerning ear to judge.

When well known producer A says there's no difference between Kemper vs amps, many people receive that judgement highly positively exactly because of the producer's listening abilities.

My point being: it can go both ways. You need good ears to make such judgements, whether you're a producer or not. So mocking people on the basis of "golden ears" often seems selective to me.

I think a better approach is just to try and remain honest with ourselves and update our views when it's reasonable to. I don't have to believe I've got magical hearing abilities to do that.

Ps: Of course if by "judging differences" we mean someone's metaphysically subjective experience alone, pointing to nothing else, that's just mind dependent. Not much to be said there, in this context.

But that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to getting a whiff of differences that are non mind dependent -- they exist even in the lack of perception of minds.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

I know I have some high end loss, but I’ve not been tested. I definitely don’t have these:

View attachment 57196

(For the record, I don’t think “golden ears” is always a pejorative term, but can be)

It's not @Orvillain's golden ears you need to worry about.

 

[GTR37]

I remember at TOP getting called out for saying ToneX (on launch) wasn’t nailing the top and bottom end. Quite amusing when V2 comes along and all of a sudden everyone unanimously agrees that it sounds and feels noticeably better. Similar things have happened with the TMP, Fractal and other Helix amp models (like the Invective having bugs). Usually it results in a bug fix and every wins (DI has already said they’re going to take a look at the 5150).

It happens all the time - first there is denial, then once it’s fixed the tide changes.

I mean you did catch the DC stuff that they have now fixed but the question is why was that not picked up prior by beta and sound design team ?
That’s why I don’t think it unreasonable to think that there could be something in the coding or small error in the algo

It does happen all the time , James freeman just found one on Fractal that FAS thought was natural Inter modulation distortion but it turned out to be a bug and now it been fixed