EOengineer
Rock Star
- Messages
- 4,012
Just like any tool, options expose other trade offs that require consideration.
Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk
- Thread starter laxu
- Start date
ejecta
Shredder
- Messages
- 1,398
How are they doing the tone matching?
Not sure. Is it through an extra IR? Or just the IR of the cab and extra blocks? @brianwahl would know!
Great job btw, loved the pushed sounds but all were great
brianwahl
Groupie
- Messages
- 23
We do it the same way as with Helix, Axe-FX, etc.
Basically, we take the Agoura amp model and send it thru the IR of the cab we mic'd the amp with (there are four cab options in this pack, so, for example, the '76 Marshall 1960A), and then we EQ match the amp model + IR cab to the real amp thru the same cab. That EQ match then gets baked into the IR of the cab, so the resulting IR is basically the IR of the '76 Marshall cab, plus whatever EQ match is necessary to make the whole thing sound like the real amp+cab.
Most of the time, when I take the amp model of the target amp (or something very close) and run it through the cab IR that we mic'd the real amp with, the tones are very, very close. So, ideally, the tone/EQ match process doesn't have to do much to really close the gap. In the case of the Agoura Plexi and the real 1959 Modified amp, once I ran the Agoura model thru the appropriate cab IR, it was VERY difficult to hear the difference. So the EQ match didn't do a ton. But it does add a little extra sauce to make the stock amp model sound like the real amp. I wouldn't say that it makes the Agoura model sound *better* than running it through your favorite IR, just different.
For Helix, we've done this process to a lot of amps that aren't in the unit as stock models - stuff like a Matchless Chieftain or Benson Chimera. We're not planning to do that with the Stadium. We really want to wait until Proxy is available and just start capturing our amp catalog.
But I would like to explore matching amps models that we have the real-world amp equivalents, which would include:
- 1967 Deluxe Reverb (with original 12" Oxford)
- 1964 AC30 (with original Alnico silver's)
- '02 Korg-era AC30/6 Top Boost (with alnico blue's)
- Bogner Ecstasy
- '65 Princeton (non-reverb)
It's a lot of fun to experiment with this, though. Our tone match presets very much rely on the underlying amp modeling, and with the improvements in Agoura amp modeling, they are a significant improvement on Stadium.
You can kind of think of it, though, as the amp model with some fancy IR's, ha.
Last edited:
ejecta
Shredder
- Messages
- 1,398
Yeah I think I’ll wait for Proxy as well but thanks for sharing how you guys do that. Appreciate it.
Chocol8
Shredder
- Messages
- 2,200
Capture tech has barely moved from its infancy to its toddler era. The drawbacks of sorting through captures like sorting through IR’s is real, but I believe temporary.
It will not take long before we have systems that can take a set of “static captures” and interpolate between them with a very high degree of accuracy. The result will be a user interface that looks and feels like using a model but with capture tech in the background. Like a cab sim where you can move mics but which is using a bunch of IR’s in the background. The advantage over component modeling will be the speed of capturing more amps (and effects including time based and other shit not currently captureable) and the ability to run more captures (amps and effects) on the same hardware. The amount of blocks or paths a device can run is going to go way up with better capture tech.
We don’t know what Line6 has planned for Proxy, and I expect it will be limited at launch, but I am betting by the end of the life cycle for Stadium hardware in 8-10 years, capture tech will be a much bigger part of the experience than Agora.
It will not take long before we have systems that can take a set of “static captures” and interpolate between them with a very high degree of accuracy. The result will be a user interface that looks and feels like using a model but with capture tech in the background. Like a cab sim where you can move mics but which is using a bunch of IR’s in the background. The advantage over component modeling will be the speed of capturing more amps (and effects including time based and other shit not currently captureable) and the ability to run more captures (amps and effects) on the same hardware. The amount of blocks or paths a device can run is going to go way up with better capture tech.
We don’t know what Line6 has planned for Proxy, and I expect it will be limited at launch, but I am betting by the end of the life cycle for Stadium hardware in 8-10 years, capture tech will be a much bigger part of the experience than Agora.
Elric
Roadie
- Messages
- 818
I don’t see interpolation ever being viable in terms of accurate behavior in the general case. You’d have to combine it with a component model of the amp in question which defeats the point. You cannot assume things behave linearly or with some other simple relationship and in isolation from one another between captured points. You are better off brute forcing and shooting thousands of caps via automation/brute force. I.e. like NDSPs ‘TINA’ concept.
You could get viable results but not accurate results.
brianwahl
Groupie
- Messages
- 23
Headrush kinda does this with their Superclones. You provide however many clones you want - typically throughout the gain range of an amp (or channel of an amp), and it combines those into a single 'capture' where you can essentially morph between them all.
I've made a handful of them, and they work really well. I try to keep the EQ voicing pretty consistent as I move up the gain range of an amp, so really nothing drastically changes in the super clone - it just sounds like turning up the gain on the amp itself.
I've made a handful of them, and they work really well. I try to keep the EQ voicing pretty consistent as I move up the gain range of an amp, so really nothing drastically changes in the super clone - it just sounds like turning up the gain on the amp itself.
TubeStack
Rock Star
- Messages
- 3,297
The best use I've had for captures/profiles was capturing my own amp that isn't modeled anywhere, the Mesa Electra Dyne. Which, not surprisingly, was the happiest I've been playing a digital anything, be it model or capture. But it did have limitations, like not being to to truly/accurately make adjustments in real time, etc, however that wasn't a huge deal because I'm generally a "set it and forget" guy. (But I do like to be able to tweak presence and treble on a Mesa in a live situation, ideally.)
Chocol8
Shredder
- Messages
- 2,200
You do not need to assume that the behavior is linear or even simple. What is being captured today is neither and it works extremely well. That said, tone stacks are not that complicated or unpredictable and the capture is already capturing how the tubes and power supply respond to different input levels at different frequencies. What is missing is mostly what the sweep of the audio taper pots is like and some level of control interaction, and those things will be VERY easy for AI to learn and incorporate.
I believe accurate dynamic captures that can match or exceed Fractal/Agora modeling are much easier and much closer to reality than you realize.
Elric
Roadie
- Messages
- 818
Nah it’s more than just a tone stack. It’s great that you believe that though.
Chocol8
Shredder
- Messages
- 2,200
LOL, I build and repair tube amps, I KNOW exactly how they work and what impacts them. There is way more going on than the tone stack, but capture tech already can capture ALL OF IT! Your skepticism is rooted in not understanding. Trust me, dynamic captures are going to be a thing pretty soon and they will evolve rapidly. It's already being worked on.
GTR37
Rock Star
- Messages
- 4,745
Legend has it if you head outside and turn your right ear towards Hawaii you will probably hear the sound a man from Calabasas scream
“F** no”
- Messages
- 9,911
I use Blender.
