Kemper Profiler MK 2

[Sascha Franck]

It’s likely that something that has a deep null with a source probably sounds very close to it, but when comparing a few different profiles, they could all null to a similar amount, but in areas we perceive differently (either based on the source, the frequency range, the amplifier, the tone, the playback system, the users ears).

This! A nulltest could fail miserably, but in case it's in a less important frequency range, the sound might still be more accurate than another contender showing better nulltest results, in case the "offsets" happen in a more relevant frequency range.

 

[OneEng]

This! A nulltest could fail miserably, but in case it's in a less important frequency range, the sound might still be more accurate than another contender showing better nulltest results, in case the "offsets" happen in a more relevant frequency range.

... then there is the discussion on what if the inaccurate capture actually sounds better? It isn't like a tube amp sounds identical every time you power it up .... or over time as the tubes age.

I think that all of the devices at the high end today offer very convincing tone. I suspect that consumers of these devices will be looking to other factors to make their buying decisions.

This is why I think Stadium is so convincing and MK2 is less convincing..... even if it manages a perfect NULL test.

I actually suspect that I will still continue to prefer Kemper over Stadium when it is released for pure tone and gig workflow (that is yet to be proven though), but from a usability and features standpoint, MK2 looks pretty plain in comparison.

 

[Sascha Franck]

... then there is the discussion on what if the inaccurate capture actually sounds better?

This is not a discussion but a matter of preferences.
Personally, I don't care for any authentic stuff, so there's that. But at the same time I can perfectly understand that, once going for a capturing device, people want it to be as close to the real deal as possible, warts and stuff included.

 

[Chocol8]

But at the same time I can perfectly understand that, once going for a capturing device, people want it to be as close to the real deal as possible, warts and stuff included.

Most of the people who are using modelers or capture devices don't even know what the warts are.

 

[Lysander]

Most of the people who are using modelers or capture devices don't even know what the warts are.

Yeah, people don't seem to get that's the entire point of the new Helix having a hype knob: amps don't sound IRL as people expect them to sound, based on records.

I've read many times people complaining about JCM800 models being "fizzy", for example. My brother, the real amp does that a lot.

 

[BenIfin]

Just a side note that Null tests are good but very very far from the full-true story.

Say ....

Null Test A = -45db LUFS
Null Test B = -35db LUFS

Which is "best" depends on where the freq differences are.

If Null Test B was less accurate in the 50hz <-> 70hz region and less accurate in the 18khz <-> 19khz region but identical everywhere else, it will score a shit Null Test result .... yet if this is where the differences are, not even the Invisible Sky Daddy is going to be able to hear the difference.

Always trust your ears.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Most of the people who are using modelers or capture devices don't even know what the warts are.

Of course not. In 99% of all cases, I don't know, either. Yet, expecting the most authentic results from devices claiming to deliver most authentic results is perfectly legit. And as said, I'm saying that as someone who basically doesn't care.

 

[Chocol8]

Of course not. In 99% of all cases, I don't know, either. Yet, expecting the most authentic results from devices claiming to deliver most authentic results is perfectly legit. And as said, I'm saying that as someone who basically doesn't care.

Yes, but that is EXACTLY why I think the Line 6 hype knob is a great idea if executed well. People want authentic because they want to be able to get the tones from dozens of amps they can't actually own, because of cost, space, rarity etc. BUT, they usually don't have any idea what the real thing sounds like, and ultimately they want it to sound good to them when they play it.

Do I really need ghost notes and blocking distortion in my modeled and captured amps? Not really, unless I am trying to fool someone who knows the real amp well. That said, I am so used to playing tube amps, I am not at all bothered by the warts either, but I read posts from people who don't know all the time. A way to toggle the warts on or off or blend them in or out seems like a great solution to me. I would be most people would eventually gravitate to an idealized tube amp over a completely accurate one if the important parts are done accurately.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Most of the people who are using modelers or capture devices don't even know what the warts are.

That soooo much.
I want it to sound like a Plexi, even though I never wrestled that kinda pig in mud…

 

[Sascha Franck]

Yes, but that is EXACTLY why I think the Line 6 hype knob is a great idea if executed well.

I think so too.

And still, it's absolutely legit to expect the highest amount of accuracy from someone claiming to deliver accuracy.

 

[DrewJD82]

Yea, an entire forum filled with people who can't pick out a Kemper from other recordings of real amps and other captures yet claim aliasing is the cause. Dunning Kruger indeed.

You’re either knowingly full of shit or so deluded reality doesn’t occur in your head.

Deadpan came into this thread and gave us 2 different posts to pick which was the amp and which was the Kemper, we all guessed which was the Kemper on the first one and when we did it with the 2nd one he never even came back to reveal which was which. What would give him reason to not reveal which was which, maybe because we already knew?

And I was listening on a Ipad.

And don’t try taking some high road now which “it’s unfortunate personal attacks are allowed” when you’ve been telling people they’ve got Dunning Kruger or no real world experience, repeatedly between this thread and that dumbass “E-kits sound better than acoustic kits” thread. For that thread alone your avatar should have a permanently fixed dunce cap on it.

 

[The Colonel]

Let me lay this out for you @OneEng

This forum can be a little rough sometimes but is generally easy to get along in. Provided you aren't a person who comes in blathering on about your expertise, talking down to people and only coming into threads to stir the pot with insane takes and zero sense of humor while contributing nothing of value in any other discussion. Seems like you're prone to doing all these things so you might try and add some self-awareness and humility to your repertoire as you will find it will go a long way to having a good time while you are here.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Let me lay this out for you @OneEng

This forum can be a little rough sometimes but is generally easy to get along in. Provided you aren't a person who comes in blathering on about your expertise, talking down to people and only coming into threads to stir the pot with insane takes and zero sense of humor while contributing nothing of value in any other discussion. Seems like you're prone to doing all these things so you might try and add some self-awareness and humility to your repertoire as you will find it will go a long way to having a good time while you are here.

Pin this one, lol.

 

[OneEng]

You’re either knowingly full of shit or so deluded reality doesn’t occur in your head.

You can go fuck yourself. Stick that little dick wiener of yours right up your ass and just lay the fuck off. That goes for the rest of the assholes in here as well.

It's clear that you don't understand a great deal about a great many things. That's fine, stick with the click here where you can say ridiculous things because there happens to be a group that agrees with the same nonsense. If my retorts to juvenile posts bother you, try berating the idiots that start the altercations. You seem to be very interested in every statement I have ever made, and very uninterested in the discussion and abuse that lead up to those statements.

Let me lay this out for you @OneEng

This forum can be a little rough sometimes but is generally easy to get along in. Provided you aren't a person who comes in blathering on about your expertise, talking down to people and only coming into threads to stir the pot with insane takes and zero sense of humor while contributing nothing of value in any other discussion. Seems like you're prone to doing all these things so you might try and add some self-awareness and humility to your repertoire as you will find it will go a long way to having a good time while you are here.

Thanks for the mostly reasonable reply.

It isn't "a little rough". It is intentionally brash and disrespectful. Perhaps you should be providing a little guidance to others. Shoot, DrewJD82 let Orvillian thrash him publicly and backed off like a whipped puppy. I actually felt bad for the guy.

I don't mind playing the rough game as well. I have some pretty good thick skin and have delt with a lot more crap than this little horde of infants can dish out. Perhaps I simply was too polite for too long?

There are plenty of posts where members here have blatantly baited me to respond. I didn't see any intervention then. Were you sleeping? Well, I guess I should be responding to all these little minds a bit more aggressively. Lord knows I have been patient enough.

I do like a good intelligent discussion. That isn't what goes on here very often though. A good ole fashioned pissing contest can be fun too. That seems to be more the speed of this forum. Trash talk and mob mentality.

I would point out that your own mod "stirred" this pot when he should be attempting to maintain some type of civility in the discussions. It's a shame really. I'm sure there are plenty of people that would prefer a more cerebral discussion. This just aint that kinda place.

 

[LP59]

I’m not really sure how well it shows accuracy though because there isn’t really any context to any of it. Great for showing if something is identical but beyond that it’s sort of just largely meaningless numbers and noise.

It’s likely that something that has a deep null with a source probably sounds very close to it, but when comparing a few different profiles, they could all null to a similar amount, but in areas we perceive differently (either based on the source, the frequency range, the amplifier, the tone, the playback system, the users ears). So you might get a range of different numbers but I don’t think they really correspond to anything meaningful, unfortunately. Guitar tones are too complex to measure like that IMO.

I think listening is far more informative, even if you take in the massive variable of playback systems and people’s hearing.

True, but what if you're comparing two profilers and they both sound a little different than the amp, and it's hard to tell with your ears which is closer? That's almost always the case these days. A null test can help measure which one is closer.

There are theoretical issues that could confound a null test, like phase differences or inaudible frequencies, but in practice those rarely occur with profilers.

IMHO, a null test is like meters on a compressor. It's no substitute for listening, but it can provide useful additional information.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Stick that little dick wiener of yours right up your ass and just lay the fuck off.

Technically, that might not be as easy as you seem to think.

 

[Orvillain]

You can go fuck yourself.
<snip>

hahahahahahahaha. Seethe more you fucking slag.

 

[Orvillain]

that dumbass “E-kits sound better than acoustic kits” thread

I love that thread. I want to print all of its pages out on toilet paper, and just keep it. Never use it. Just ... admire it.

 

[Orvillain]

even though I never wrestled that kinda pig in mud…

Now THAT, I don't believe.

 

[Orvillain]

Null tests are diagnostically asymmetric. A null test can prove equality, but it can’t prove perceptual inequality. If two signals null, they are demonstrably identical. But if they don’t null, all that tells you is that some difference exists — not whether that difference is perceptible or musically meaningful. A textbook case showcasing this fact is reverb.

I'll link my Medium article again:


The reason I presented the information as a spectrogram rather than a -dBFS based null measurement in the DAW, was to try and overcome this. You can actually see which frequency bands are the risk areas. I also mapped the data against a mel-spectrogram - a spectrogram that uses the mel-scale, which more closely represents how our ears hear frequencies - for this very reason.

If I had all of the devices with me, I'd love to do a more up to date article.