Kemper Profiler MK 2

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paisleywookiee said:
This thread is now about solidarity. Especially with Canadian engineers that actually know what they’re talking about.
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I *should* be a dead cert upgrader to the Mk2; I’ve had a Mk1 since 2013 and (although some folks here will think it crazy) I’ve been very happy with it. It’s sounded good (to my ears), it’s been rock solid reliable and has benefited from many free upgrades over the years that have improved the functionality greatly. It really doesn’t owe me anything… it’s better now than the day I got it and, because I like that overall ethos of ‘not having to buy new hardware every couple of years because they keep improving it for free’ it’s kept me away from looking elsewhere for many years. I had every intention of staying with the company at the point they brought out new hardware. Certainly no interest in going elsewhere but…

I’ve actually put down a pre order deposit on a Helix Stadium XL which isn’t something I thought I’d consider. I would have happily stayed put with Kemper but the Mk2 just isn’t looking like a sensible upgrade for me personally. I don’t use all the fx slots I have now and a few seconds shaved off the boot time are not important to me. That’s 2/3 of the advertised improvements unless I’m missing something so it all comes down to ‘am I, as a loyal and happy customer, willing to pay for a new unit to experience more accurate amp sounds *but otherwise no changes that matter to me with the way I use it*?’

And this is a problem which has caused my brain to start the process of going elsewhere; I’ve had years being told that profiling is an exact capture and the closest way for me to enjoy amps I cannot otherwise experience. I’ve only got a couple of real amps so honestly how would I know? I just have to download free and commercial profiles, use what I like and trust that they’re sounding like the real thing. Clearly, as they’re now selling a better version of profiling, it’s an admission that it was *not* exact so the last 12 years of use I have actually been ‘close’ but not ‘exact’. Sure, I’ve been close enough to be happy and *that point there* is the biggest issue for me.

When one of the main marketing messages has always been ‘precision of profiling is superior to approximation of modelling’ then the company admission that profiling Mk1 was also an approximation and they could actually do better and are more doing so? That means it’s sensible to look at what else is out there….. Anything released right now is not going to be inferior to Kemper Mk1 sounds (which I’ve been good with) so, if a new unit has other functionalities that works for me that the Kemper cannot do? That becomes attractive.

Beyond cool features elsewhere, I’m also concerned that the Mk2 just won’t have the upgrade longevity that the Mk1 had….. it’s impressive to incrementally improve a unit over 12 years. As the majority of the box is the same, will they be able to pull that off again? To do so would mean still providing upgrades to equipment where the core architecture is 25 years old. They’re clever folks but that’s a tall order - it makes me think this thing is a bridge to a true Kemper 2 in 2-5 years time.

When the new software drops for Kemper mk2, it might blow me away and come with other cool stuff that is valuable to me. I hope this is the case - I’ve had great value out of my mk1, wish them well as a company and wouldn’t like to see them suffer from a disappointing release. They’re always crap at marketing vs most other companies (the current Line 6 teaser and upcoming launch is textbook IMO vs Kemper’s wall of silence) so who knows? They might pull it off. But if an old fart like me who doesn’t have a roving eye for other gear is looking elsewhere when they absolutely had me for an Easy sale? Then they might want to think on that. I’m only one long-term happy customer but the buzz out there for this release suggests that I’m not alone.
 
Gary_W said:
As the majority of the box is the same, will they be able to pull that off again? To do so would mean still providing upgrades to equipment where the core architecture is 25 years old. They’re clever folks but that’s a tall order - it makes me think this thing is a bridge to a true Kemper 2 in 2-5 years time.
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Who knows, but personally, I would really not expect a "true Kemper 2" with stadium-style improvements any time soon. Even the rather simplistic editor (comparatively speaking) seemed like a big deal for Kemper.

Perhaps they will be forced to make a major redesign at some point, if the company is to sustain itself, but how able are they to achieve that? I believe it's likely they just couldn't do better than Kemper MKII, as things stand.

Maybe in the future the company changes considerably and there's more possibilities. Perhaps at some point we see something different. I just wouldn't hold out for much, especially not in a few years. But I could be way wrong.
 
If Kemper did the MkII, then did an actual Kemper 2 in a couple years, it’d be an absolute shit-show in terms of optics. They’d piss even more people off.
 
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[Nathan] said:
I gotta admit this thread and the ekit thread are great sources of daily entertainment, keep it up lads. I’ll do my part and throw some wood on the fire.

Nothing about the mk2 seems to have done anything for the coolness of buying/owning a kemper. I’m in a bunch of discords, YouTuber chats, forums and have my ear to the ground with YouTube content… pretty much all crickets for the kemper besides the news about mk2 when it initially launched. I can’t say the same thing for any other unit.

They’re obviously functional units being used around the world but as an A tier priced unit, the market for people willingly buying one over a quad cortex, fractal, helix/stadium would be low.

It’s a shame they didn’t lean into neural networks and come up with some hybrid solution (maybe that’s on the cards down the line). But more of the same is a pretty big yikes. Even if the accuracy is a bit better the high level takeaway for consumers is “it’s the same kemper but like, a bit better accuracy”.

Again I know the kemper units are fine, I’m really talking about them losing public perception against the competition. When someone wants to buy a new brand name digital unit, the kemper seems like a tough sell compared to the rest. Sales of used units have gone down which makes second hand gear affordable, but that doesn’t help them get new RRP money in through the door
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IMO, the biggest failure that Kemper has had is their loss of credibility. In 2012, they were in a class all by themselves. Fast forward about 20+ years and they are roughly where they were in the beginning. Sure, they have done wonders with their firmware releases. No one can reasonably argue that the new verbs and delays are not top tier or that Liquid Profiles are not a big step up in usability; however, at the end of the day in the world of consumer products, it always comes down to how you look compared to everyone else.

As for the price tier, they are definitely in the same price range of the Stadium, but not the XL and they are nearly half the price of an Axe III Fx. Still, to your point, they aren't cheap, so they are definitely in the big boy league and will be compared to other devices in this price range.
LP59 said:
Even more than Fractal, I think Kemper is a one-man shop, and I doubt Christoph has expertise in that area. Add to that their weird hardware platform that will never change, and I doubt we'll see much innovation coming from Kemper. Even liquid profiles was more of an accidental side-effect of their existing technology rather than a push into a new area.

Kemper is pretty damn good, but it is what it is and doesn't have much headroom for enhancements. That's what makes their announcement of new profiling so curious.
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I think that both Kemper and Fractal are going to have their hands full with Line 6 and their mother company Yamaha.
BenIfin said:
As they say, with the MK2 new Profiling Process being so loudly touted on pre-release over 2 months ago, the silence is deafening. Leads me to think they are either going to actually deliver something class leading -or- a slightly better than MK1 Profiling.
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They generally have over-delivered in the past, but they have been very slow getting there. I think the bigger issue they have is .... so what? Lets say they deliver the good and meet or exceed the best NAM can produce. Does that really change anything for them?

I think they are still in deep trouble as other products are moving forward with new features, vastly improved GUI, and in some cases, totally re-imagining what a digital guitar processor can do.

Better profiling wont combat that IMO.
LP59 said:
Anyway, semantics aside, my point is I believe Kemper is heavily reliant on a single developer, which must make it hard to expand their offering to incorporate new technology like neural nets. The relatively minor enhancements we've seen from Kemper over the course of 14 years should be ample proof of that :giggle:.
Click to expand...
It's possible, but unlikely. What appears to be true from your statement is that they have cornered themselves into an architecture that prohibits much expansion. In the long run, that is big trouble.
Gary_W said:
I *should* be a dead cert upgrader to the Mk2; I’ve had a Mk1 since 2013 and (although some folks here will think it crazy) I’ve been very happy with it. It’s sounded good (to my ears), it’s been rock solid reliable and has benefited from many free upgrades over the years that have improved the functionality greatly. It really doesn’t owe me anything… it’s better now than the day I got it and, because I like that overall ethos of ‘not having to buy new hardware every couple of years because they keep improving it for free’ it’s kept me away from looking elsewhere for many years. I had every intention of staying with the company at the point they brought out new hardware. Certainly no interest in going elsewhere but…

I’ve actually put down a pre order deposit on a Helix Stadium XL which isn’t something I thought I’d consider. I would have happily stayed put with Kemper but the Mk2 just isn’t looking like a sensible upgrade for me personally. I don’t use all the fx slots I have now and a few seconds shaved off the boot time are not important to me. That’s 2/3 of the advertised improvements unless I’m missing something so it all comes down to ‘am I, as a loyal and happy customer, willing to pay for a new unit to experience more accurate amp sounds *but otherwise no changes that matter to me with the way I use it*?’
Click to expand...
Same here. I am still waiting on the full features to be released on the Stadium and to get real world users feedback .... but should something happen to my current Kemper next year, It is entirely possible I would opt for a Stadium as a replacement as it appears there will be lots of good things being released for the Stadium over the next decade. Kemper? Not so much.
 
I like the fact that it wasn’t just an iPad stuck on a helix. Oh wait someone has just done that. They decided to stick with the Nokia UI and not give it any more dsp. It’s looking like a mk 2 from Fractal with a different colour led and a free pen.
 
Gary_W said:
And this is a problem which has caused my brain to start the process of going elsewhere; I’ve had years being told that profiling is an exact capture and the closest way for me to enjoy amps I cannot otherwise experience. I’ve only got a couple of real amps so honestly how would I know? I just have to download free and commercial profiles, use what I like and trust that they’re sounding like the real thing. Clearly, as they’re now selling a better version of profiling, it’s an admission that it was *not* exact so the last 12 years of use I have actually been ‘close’ but not ‘exact’. Sure, I’ve been close enough to be happy and *that point there* is the biggest issue for me.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you're feeling a little betrayed by Kemper. However, keep in mind they have not said the new profiling is more accurate than the current profiling. We're assuming it's better in some way, but Kemper hasn't said how it is better. So I wouldn't jump ship just yet because of that issue.
 
Gary_W said:
Beyond cool features elsewhere, I’m also concerned that the Mk2 just won’t have the upgrade longevity that the Mk1 had….. it’s impressive to incrementally improve a unit over 12 years. As the majority of the box is the same, will they be able to pull that off again? To do so would mean still providing upgrades to equipment where the core architecture is 25 years old. They’re clever folks but that’s a tall order - it makes me think this thing is a bridge to a true Kemper 2 in 2-5 years time.
Click to expand...

A Kemper 2 in 2-5 years is an optimistic viewpoint. Realistically though, I doubt that's going to happen. Christoph has been working with the same processor for 30 years. If he had the interest and/or resources to move on to something more modern or powerful, he would have done so already. Instead, we have the Mk2, with the same architecture. It's good, but it is what it is. You can see from the fixed effects in the recent firmware update that they are running out of headroom for improvements.

IMHO they are making the best of the situation. They're locked into an architecture, so they'll just ride it as long as they can.
 
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