Kemper Profiler MK 2

[Dimiguitar]

For all the shit its copping, the actual refresh on the colour scheme does look pretty slick, very death star control panel stuff

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I remember when the first, white Kemper came out. Looked like a hospital appliance. My first thoughts were: who on earth designs a guitar product to look this way?! Couldn't they ask someone, anyone, for some advice?

But then with time, I grew fond of how the toasters look, even the white ones. Just more personality and character than the usual guitar products, for my taste. My fractals look bland by comparison where as Kemper toasters I've had contributed to my guitar room aesthetic.

 

[dws2384]

I don't even know what the debate was over.

Kemper claimed the “most accurate and precise” profiling ever for MK2 which obviously led to excitement as many hoped that it would take a step up and rival other products.

They then changed that wording on the website to “the most powerful” and disassembled MK2 units found it using the same DSP chips as MK1. This led to discussion of doubts that it will be much better than MK1.

A few users have now been debating that accuracy doesn’t really matter because it ‘sounds good’ and there’s other things that matter more..other things which already exist in the product. Are we scared Kemper is going to remove those in exchange for higher quality profiling? lol. I don’t get that argument.

The point being missed by that crew is that you’ll always been able to profile in MK1 quality still (even on MK2 units) and directly on the device. Others, myself included were hoping to also have the option to profile in a higher quality closer to Tonex or NAM, which would be amazing as Kemper has done a lot of other things right over the years and it would make the product more compelling.

My opinion is that if it’s not a jump up to at least Tonex accuracy Kemper is going to have a hard time competing. There will be little reason for existing users to buy MK2 and not much to lure new buyers away from competitors products as more people switch to digital rigs.

I’m holding out a bit of hope that the new profiling will be pretty good when it’s released, you can keep telling me it doesn’t matter, but it does.

 

[dws2384]

I am certainly not debating my personal preference. I am pointing out that there are others that have different preferences other than accuracy. For those who feel accuracy is lacking in Kemper, and want for something more accurate, there are plenty of options for them.

If you were entering the market to buy a capturing device in 2025 I would assume one of your top concerns would be the accuracy of its main feature. As you said there are plenty of options doing this better than Kemper. You think this is a wise business strategy? Or one that will be successful long term?

 

[texhex]

Ah yes, the new product release thread. I remember the good old days...

 

[Jarick]

If you were entering the market to buy a capturing device in 2025 I would assume one of your top concerns would be the accuracy of its main feature. As you said there are plenty of options doing this better than Kemper. You think this is a wise business strategy? Or one that will be successful long term?

Here's my criteria for a hardware unit in 2025:

• Does it sound great?
• Do I have to tweak extensively to get a good sound?
• Is it relatively easy or even fun to use?
• Is there a proper suite of good sounding effects?
• Is it powerful enough to run lots of effects at once?
• Is the latency acceptable?
• Does it have a good number of ins and outs?
• Is there a good computer editor?
• Does it have USB audio?
• What is the price?
• Does the company have a good track record of development and support?

Null tests might cover one of those points, but not even close to all of them.

 

[Orvillain]

Here's my criteria for a hardware unit in 2025:

• Does it sound great?
• Do I have to tweak extensively to get a good sound?
• Is it relatively easy or even fun to use?
• Is there a proper suite of good sounding effects?
• Is it powerful enough to run lots of effects at once?
• Is the latency acceptable?
• Does it have a good number of ins and outs?
• Is there a good computer editor?
• Does it have USB audio?
• What is the price?
• Does the company have a good track record of development and support?

Null tests might cover one of those points, but not even close to all of them.

I wrote mine up on Jun 2nd in this very thread:

My Drewslov's Hierarchy of First World Needs for a digital modeller or profiler/capture type box:

- It needs to sound and feel like an amp. Any amp. But an amp.
- It needs to have exceptional audio quality - aliasing should be minimal, oversampling should be done where needed, and the overall impression should be one of clarity, presence, punch; a 3D 'life like' impression of an amp tone. To use a bunch of buzz words.
- In the case of profiling or capturing, it should be as close to 1:1 against the reference amp as possible.
- It should not alter the input signal in any negative way whatsoever - this includes avoiding spectral FFT based processes that sit in the audio processing path; using it for a spectral noise gate, where the FFT only processes the sidechain (presumably) is acceptable to me.
- It should natively run at 48kHz - primarily because that's how I run my entire system, and if I'm connecting to the unit digitally, I just want it all to work without clocking issues.
- It should have digital connections - preferably AES/EBU.

Based on that, quite why people are misrepresenting me and my concerns about accuracy, is anyone's guess. Very telling of their emotional biases.

IMHO, Kemper fails right at point one - it doesn't clean up like an amp, it doesn't have the same dynamic response as an amp, and because of the audio quality issues, it doesn't sound like the recording of an amp.

Cope harder, peoples!!

 

[BenIfin]

Others, myself included were hoping to also have the option to profile in a higher quality closer to Tonex or NAM, which would be amazing as Kemper has done a lot of other things right over the years and it would make the product more compelling. My opinion is that if it’s not a jump up to at least Tonex accuracy Kemper is going to have a hard time competing.

It is %100 certain that CK / Kemper have NAM and Tonex loaded on their computers and either he - or the dedicated techs - have done their own Captures to verify and confirm just how accurate they both are for a static profile - and compared them to the existing MK1 Legacy static accuracy.

They have ears and eyes - they too will hear and "see" the differences - so there is less than zero reasons for them not knowing what the completion is doing and therefore knowing the bar they need to clear.

Given this .... I would suggest that their only possible and plausible target is to at least equal if not surpass NAM and Tonex.

They do have an added bonus on their side in that their existing staple of Gain/EQ Modeled stacks for LP'ing - although not 1:1 - are exceptionally Amp like when adjusting the controls on a LP - that was certainly my direct experience running my Stage for 6 months with only well made LP's.

So the "dream" / "absolute best case scenario" for the MK2 is that it will deliver NAM/Tonex levels of accuracy combined with their existing LP process ... so you can adjust the Profile controls and have them respond "like" a real Amp - as opposed to how shit NAM and Tonex captures become once you start to tweak the generic gain/eq controls in them.

Like I said ... this is the best case dream outcome for the MK2.

My [ not-insubstantial gut ] feels however that the probable outcome is something that is much better than MK1 Legacy Static "accuracy" but still somewhat lesser than Static NAM / Tonex.

Its Summer in Germany so we'll know sooner rather than later.

 

[Deadpan]

The Mark-based models.

Here is a Vs using a Mark Vii in iiC mode.

Which is the real amp?

 

[paisleywookiee]

I wrote mine up on Jun 2nd in this very thread:


Based on that, quite why people are misrepresenting me and my concerns about accuracy, is anyone's guess. Very telling of their emotional biases.

IMHO, Kemper fails right at point one - it doesn't clean up like an amp, it doesn't have the same dynamic response as an amp, and because of the audio quality issues, it doesn't sound like the recording of an amp.

Cope harder, peoples!!

But you're ignoring all the people who love it for it's broad versatility and features! WHY DOESN'T THAT MATTER TO YOU!? 99% of the 60% of the people who bought it (those are real statistics) think it's the finest thing since sliced bread.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Here is a Vs using a Mark Vii in iiC mode.

Which is the real amp?

Before I listen to that, you know what issue I had with it, right?

 

[Deadpan]

Before I listen to that, you know what issue I had with it, right?

I do not. What was it?

 

[paisleywookiee]

I do not. What was it?

It's not that it's completely incapable of producing a good profile, it's that it was inconsistent, which was frustrating. It also didn't feel like the amp to us.

The second one is the amp? Dunno. Without playing it, I'm not really into the online Pepsi challenges.

 

[Orvillain]

Here is a Vs using a Mark Vii in iiC mode.

Which is the real amp?

Which is the real amp is not the relevant question. Can you hear differences is the relevant question, and yes, I can. They are massive. The first clip has a very different mid-range texture, and the low-end seems more subdued than the second clip. Second clip has a smoother mid range.

I won't guess which is the real amp, but what I would say is, I preferred the second clip. I would not be happy with the first clip, whether it was the real amp or the Kemper.

 

[Jarick]

@BenIfin - agreed. My hope is that the new profiling reaches the same levels as Tonex/NAM. Then you're getting higher fidelity models alongside all the Kemper effects which are pretty solid. The UI is still pretty dated but at least the new versions aren't nearly as laggy and buggy.

I still don't really get the Mk2 release though. The improvements they made are all great. But even if they weren't planning to overhaul the UX, why not at least bring the QOL features like WiFi or Bluetooth to other models?

 

[paisleywookiee]

Which is the real amp is not the relevant question. Can you hear differences is the relevant question, and yes, I can. They are massive. The first clip has a very different mid-range texture, and the low-end seems more subdued than the second clip. Second clip has a smoother mid range.

I won't guess which is the real amp, but what I would say is, I preferred the second clip. I would not be happy with the first clip, whether it was the real amp or the Kemper.

Yeah, they definitely sound different. Which is better? Depends on if you like a sizzle to it, or more muted top end. My issue with profiling the amps I mentioned was that it took multiple times for us to get something we liked. As I previously mentioned, this was a hair over a year ago. Has the profiling process improved? If so, that's good.

As it pertains to the thread at hand, I'd have hoped they'd have ironed out this process, made the overall sound closer, and very importantly, modernized the user interface. That doesn't appear to have happened, at least not on-device.

 

[paisleywookiee]

The other issue I had/have with capture/profiler devices in general are that at least with the Kemper, I had a lot of trouble finding profiles that I liked and would use. I thought the Michael Britt profiles sucked. Tone Junkie had a couple that were fine, and Top Jimmy had a cool one. Rabea's Victory profiles downright sucked. It's worse than sifting through IR's.

And to be fair, that's not a "Kemper" issue, as it could apply to NAM and ToneX. The difference is that I've had a lot easier of a time with ToneX and now NAM in capturing stuff on my own.

 

[Deadpan]

It's not that it's completely incapable of producing a good profile, it's that it was inconsistent, which was frustrating. It also didn't feel like the amp to us.

The second one is the amp? Dunno. Without playing it, I'm not really into the online Pepsi challenges.

Yes, giving the user control of the refine process is a huge responsibility for the user. And makes it extremely difficult to be exact each time.

My post is mostly for those that are reading the thread. To give them context to all of the back and forth.

You had mentioned some amps were seemingly more difficult for the Kemper to profile than others. This is why I asked which was the more difficult so I could present the Kempers ability in this situation. The MK1 Kemper at this point.

Now readers can read all the words here and then listen to the clip to see how the words go along with what they hear.

I have no doubt MK 2 will be more accurate but I also think the MK 1 can sound real.

There is no inherent cocked wah or whatnot. That sound does exist in the music realm, especially in 80s tones. I personally really disliked it but it has it's place.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Yes, giving the user control of the refine process is a huge responsibility for the user. And makes it extremely difficult to be exact each time.

Yes, and I had hoped they had made improvements to that with the MkII. However, judging by early indications from people like GuitarJon, it doesn't sound like they've done that, at least with the initial firmware.

Now readers can read all the words here and then listen to the clip to see how the words go along with what they hear.

That's fair. However, it's annoying to me that I'd dial in a tone, and get a different one, and your clip shows. If you like one of the tones, you won't necessarily like the other. Do you then try to EQ it? Redo the profile?

I have no doubt MK 2 will be more accurate but I also think the MK 1 can sound real.

Well, it's not though. It's the same process. I guess we're waiting for the profiling with the computer dongle?

There is no inherent cocked wah or whatnot. That sound does exist in the music realm, especially in 80s tones. I personally really disliked it but it has it's place.

I'm not the one talking about cocked wah tones, so I won't address that.

I have clips from when I had my Badlander and captured it with Tonex that I just can't tell what the real amp was, and I'm the one that did both the capture AND the recording/playing. That's all I want from a capture device.

 

[dws2384]

I still don't really get the Mk2 release though. The improvements they made are all great. But even if they weren't planning to overhaul the UX, why not at least bring the QOL features like WiFi or Bluetooth to other models?

This is what doesnt give me much hope for MK2 profiling being much better. They didn't even do basic upgrades to the units to unify the line.

-The player and stage have true impedance and the head and rack don't.
-Bluetooth streaming (which is handy as hell) is only in the Player.
-Why not move to USB-C (spare me the BS about how type B Is "more rugged" its not)

 

[Dimiguitar]

There is no inherent cocked wah or whatnot. That sound does exist in the music realm, especially in 80s tones. I personally really disliked it but it has it's place.

I don't think there's an inherent cocked wah in all profiles, but it often happens if profiling fails. I can see the point where the power amp of my Laney distorting, alongside preamp, starts to confuse the Kemper. Then the cocked wah bananza follows. Workaround for me has been to reduce distortion in either of the two or more stages.