Kemper Player - 1st [ Paid for ? ] Update coming very soon ?

[yeky83]

I dunno whats rustled your jimmies lately but you're coming off pretty harsh and agitated when all of this is lighthearted forum discussions. I see your counterpoints about the Kemper not being too bad a value to the right customer... but the reality is the majority of people looking at the situation see it as a terrible move from Kemper. Just like the NC bashing, the KPP bashing will soon pass and Kemper will be the ones who'll check their books to see if it was a good move or not.

I'm happy that there's been a megaton of "DLC criticism" because it hopefully sends a message to every company that this kind of move sucks, we don't need to see more of it. I dont want anything bad to happen to Kemper because they're good people, but this is a dud move and hopefully they can just re-frame their sales/offerings in a better way moving forward.

My point has been that the "terrible move from Kemper" isn't the tiered pricing structure of the Player. It's the pricing across all of their products and how people perceive it to be old tech.

We gear geeks want to pay for cool stuff, we can't wait to pay for cool stuff. I made the point about how if Nano Cortex could have QC capability through a DLC, most of us would gladly pay $300 for it... we'd see it as a bargain! The Kemper isn't perceived as cool stuff anymore, that's the actual why behind all the complaints about the Kemper tiered/DLC pricing. That's my take anyway. A lot of people clearly want a platform update, and simply removing tiered pricing doesn't look like it's going to "re-frame their sales/offerings in a better way moving forward" IMO.

I found it strange that you're sarcastically laughing at "Kemper nerf bad, Fractal nerf good," when no one's said it. I'm here talking about buffets and taco bell trying to make it fun, but if this ribbing discussion ain't fun for you, sorry.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Everyone is dumb except me, obviously.

And me! But that was it already!

 

[Sascha Franck]

I made the point about how if Nano Cortex could have QC capability through a DLC, most of us would gladly pay $300 for it...

Uh, never ever.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

My point has been that the "terrible move from Kemper" isn't the tiered pricing structure of the Player. It's the pricing across all of their products and how people perceive it to be old tech.

We gear geeks want to pay for cool stuff, we can't wait to pay for cool stuff. I made the point about how if Nano Cortex could have QC capability through a DLC, most of us would gladly pay $300 for it... we'd see it as a bargain! The Kemper isn't perceived as cool stuff anymore, that's the actual why behind all the complaints about the Kemper tiered/DLC pricing. That's my take anyway. A lot of people clearly want a platform update, and simply removing tiered pricing doesn't look like it's going to "re-frame their sales/offerings in a better way moving forward" IMO.

I found it strange that you're sarcastically laughing at "Kemper nerf bad, Fractal nerf good," when no one's said it. I'm here talking about buffets and taco bell trying to make it fun, but if this ribbing discussion ain't fun for you, sorry.

For 865 I’d buy the NC in a heartbeat if I could load the plugs.

 

[Sascha Franck]

For 865 I’d buy the NC in a heartbeat if I could load the plugs.

You couldn't even switch the included overdrive pedals on, though (at least not easily).
Oh wait - you couldn't even load the included overdrive pedals.

(They could however come up with a version allowing you to do so - for a no-brainer price of 1,299)

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

You couldn't even switch the included overdrive pedals on, though (at least not easily).
Oh wait - you couldn't even load the included overdrive pedals.

(They could however come up with a version allowing you to do so - for a no-brainer price of 1,299)

1000 per item is my threshold these days, that’s reserved for guitar/amp stuff not fun toys no matter how convenient, recent exception Kemper toaster.

 

[laxu]

As far as this being evidence that Kemper won’t be innovative going forward…that this means no Kemper 2 etc. … If so, so what?
It very well could be Kemper thinks their tech is great for what it does but there is no plan for ‘next generation’ no faster chip that is going to enable higher quality, etc. they might think their method to Profile is already at its peak. I believe Christoph said as much years ago!

Which just means they've hit a dead end with their method, considering it does not stack up to newer machine learning based methods. Most companies make a next gen device in this situation to offer a reason for users to upgrade.

Look at how on paper NAM is way more advanced and yet in the studios and on stages where the musicians are paid to create/ perform the difference of that advancement of technology is what? Sounds better? With charts and graphs you can prove it but side by side players are not running to one side or the other. Maybe Kemper is once again on to to something, knowing this is as good as it gets for the foreseeable future.

NAM is an open source personal project that turned into something much more than the developer intended. It's not a full commercial product like Kemper.

IK Tonex is a commercial product. As much as I hate the software, it is a product that offers the #1 Kemper feature at a fraction of the price in either plugin, or two different hardware formats. Being more accurate is just an additional perk, the cost is the main reason why Kemper should be sweating. Quad Cortex is also outselling Kemper if you look at Thomann sales charts.

Kemper has had over a decade to get into the studios and stages of various artists, and it has worked well enough that they have had no reason to get anything else, especially when there were no other capture devices available until 2021. I see a lot of Kemper Toasters and Racks for sale on my local market, and I expect most of them are not moving to the Player.

Fender has been selling Bassman amps for half a century. As long as customers want them Fender isn’t wrong or evil or boring for building them.
Line 6 and Fractal came along, people proclaimed the end of tube amps and Fender waited how long to stick their toes in the water?
Should Fender have dropped tube amp production and jumped in right away with the Turdmaster Pro back then?

Line6 is not selling a Vetta anymore, and Fractal is not selling an Axe-Fx Ultra. Similarly Kemper's current product line will only carry them so far.

Fender sees the shift in sales, which is why they have put a lot of effort into offering higher end digital products in the past 5 years or so. So does e.g Friedman with the IR-line.

If Kemper stops innovating, eventually they will go out of business. To me they are trying to stretch their current product line as far as they can, and I would not be surprised if they are working on a next gen product but it's still several years away. Or maybe Christoph Kemper is just ok retiring and the company going out of business, he's certainly not one to follow anyone else.

 

[Orvillain]

Fenders delay and reverbs effects are better than Kempers

<ducks>

 

[Sedaxel]

For me, it´s not paid updates what´s wrong (well, it actually is at 300€, never seen that before... but anyway...).

For me it has more to do with old tech being repackaged and priced as breaking new over the top one.

Yeah, The toaster is not worth 1500€ anymore (for me). The stage is a little better, but still expensive compared to current alternatives (again, for me). That can easily be seen in the used market, where you can find toasters for 700€ and stages for 900€. You can´t find similar deltas in used QCs or Helixes for instance.

Then, appeared the player. Interesting for me... but again, overpriced for being old tech. With the +300€ it´s getting worse.

Great for those who don´t care, and prefer Kemper tech over any other one and find OK the princing strategy. It´s fine. But I´m not in that boat, and all the interest I had (that I truly had) in maybe getting one... has gone away completely. I don´t find it worthy, taking into account what´s in the market nowadays.

Peace.

 

[Orvillain]

I'd actually forgotten all about this, but now I remember when I bought a Stage from Andertons. It arrived, I plugged in. Serious ground hum noisy crap. Huh. Weird. It didn't happen when I put a Boss TU-2 or any other buffered pedal in front of the Stage.

I was on the Kemper beta team at the time, and reported it there. No significant help.

I sent it back for a replacement. The 2nd one did it as well. That's when I ended up "upgrading" to the Head + Remote combo.

Absolutely crap experience. It does bring to mind though... I don't actually think I like rack or desktop units. I prefer floor units, and may have very well stuck with the Kemper if my Stage experience hadn't been naff.

A while after that, I got a Quad Cortex in 2021 and was merely complimentary about it on the Kemper forums. That was enough to get me kicked off the beta team. It felt so unjustified that I told their QA manager to go fuck himself, and I've never been back since.

 

[PorcinePicker]

If Fractal brought out a KPP sized pedal that didnt have a screen […]

For me, based on real world experience, no screen = no sale. Not even from Fractal.

 

[Sascha Franck]

For me, based on real world experience, no screen = no sale. Not even from Fractal.

Same here. And it's completely beyond me how they could not even add a pretty simple, small screen. Heck, even an oldfashioned 10-digit LED thingy would possibly be sufficient to supply the most relevant informations, such as:
Which preset are we on? Which parameter are we tweaking? Which MIDI CC/Prg. is coming in and going where? Etc.
There'd be sufficient space, too.
But no, let's rather pretend we're the kings of UI device and can design a programmabe device that doesn't need a screen. Just that they aren't and can't. Epic fail.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

Which just means they've hit a dead end with their method, considering it does not stack up to newer machine learning based methods. Most companies make a next gen device in this situation to offer a reason for users to upgrade.


NAM is an open source personal project that turned into something much more than the developer intended. It's not a full commercial product like Kemper.

IK Tonex is a commercial product. As much as I hate the software, it is a product that offers the #1 Kemper feature at a fraction of the price in either plugin, or two different hardware formats. Being more accurate is just an additional perk, the cost is the main reason why Kemper should be sweating. Quad Cortex is also outselling Kemper if you look at Thomann sales charts.

Kemper has had over a decade to get into the studios and stages of various artists, and it has worked well enough that they have had no reason to get anything else, especially when there were no other capture devices available until 2021. I see a lot of Kemper Toasters and Racks for sale on my local market, and I expect most of them are not moving to the Player.


Line6 is not selling a Vetta anymore, and Fractal is not selling an Axe-Fx Ultra. Similarly Kemper's current product line will only carry them so far.

Fender sees the shift in sales, which is why they have put a lot of effort into offering higher end digital products in the past 5 years or so. So does e.g Friedman with the IR-line.

If Kemper stops innovating, eventually they will go out of business. To me they are trying to stretch their current product line as far as they can, and I would not be surprised if they are working on a next gen product but it's still several years away. Or maybe Christoph Kemper is just ok retiring and the company going out of business, he's certainly not one to follow anyone else.

You kind of ignored or missed the main point, which is, Kemper himself, years ago alluded to the idea that his method for profiling was at its optimal capability. So he has been adding/improving the effects, refining the hardware interface and control options like Morphing. Supporting, quite well, the product as it is. And introducing the miniature version for those who want it. Excellent addition…for those who want it…even tiered the pricing for those who want it. Not designed for those who don’t want it…

Fenders Bassman is still in production in spite of others taking the concept and in many people’s eyes improving on it. Some built a whole legendary company out of doing that *cough* Marshall*cough*….

So does Kemper or Fender have an obligation to quit delivering Profiiing Amp product or Bassman amps because the competition has advanced the concept to surpass their original design?
They both seem to think it’s ok to keep supplying a product as long as the consumers demands it. A novel concept. And really isn’t that supposed to be the determining factor? A successful design, in demand, is the foundation ‘innovation’ is built on.

Kemper is an innovator, proven successful and a leader worthy of the title. He may yet do more in the guitar amp area, maybe not.
What his product line’s current fiscal projections are in comparison to the competition aren’t a factor to a consumer deciding ‘Do I go with TONEX and deal with supplementing for all it doesn’t do because ‘charts and graphs’?
Or do I get the Stage because…one and done, reliable and sounds so authentic your ears need to be able to hear charts and graphs to know something else is better?

It seems to me Kemper is still a viable solution for many people in spite of the chatter.

 

[laxu]

You kind of ignored or missed the main point, which is, Kemper himself, years ago alluded to the idea that his method for profiling was at its optimal capability. So he has been adding/improving the effects, refining the hardware interface and control options like Morphing. Supporting, quite well, the product as it is.
Fenders Bassman is still in production in spite of others taking the concept and in many people’s eyes improving on it. Some built a whole legendary company out of doing that *cough* Marshall*cough*….

A lot of products in tech have been "the best we could make", until something new comes along. The lack of competition let Kemper not do anything about their profiling for years.

I don't think the Bassman is a big seller for Fender, but still sells enough to keep making it. With tube amps that's easier to achieve because the tech has barely advanced in the past 30 years.

So does Kemper or Fender have an obligation to quit delivering Profiiing Amp product or Bassman amps because the competition has advanced the concept to surpass their original design?
They both seem to think it’s ok to keep supplying a product as long as the consumers demands it. Really isn’t that supposed to be the determining factor? Isn’t that actually the foundation ‘innovation’ stands on?

Sales determine what Kemper or Fender should be doing.

But at the same time they should be looking at market trends to be able to react to changes. Fender has done this by making digital versions of their famous amps, and then the Tone Master Pro. IMO Kemper is reacting to the changes after they happen with Liquid Profiling, Kemper Player etc. That's not a good long term plan.

Kemper is an innovator, proven successful and a leader worthy of the title. He may yet do more in the guitar amp area, maybe not. What his products current fiscal projections are in comparison to the competition aren’t a factor to a consumer deciding ‘Do I go with TONEX and deal with supplementing for all it doesn’t do because ‘charts and graphs’?
Or do I get the Stage because…one and done, reliable and sounds so authentic you need to be able to hear charts and graphs to know the difference?

I think people are going to be wary about products that are old tech. There are people asking if they should buy a Helix or if it's going to get replaced soon. Same for Kemper. Nobody wants to be left with "yesterdays tech at today's prices" for resale value alone, let alone the FOMO from watching the new thing that is easier to use, sounds better and does more.

Of course, not all buyers are this savvy. They look at videos on YT and like what they see and hear about the Kemper, then buy e.g a Stage. They'll probably be happy with it too, nobody is saying it's a bad product. These are users who live in a different space than us modeler enthusiasts.

I would wager most people considering a Tonex are buying it purely because of low cost and good sound. They are not looking to replace their whole rig with it, and they are not going to be sticklers about the app like I am. Again, people who are likely buying their first modeler or just looking for the best value for their buck because they don't have the budget for the units we talk here all day.

If we look at higher end products...a Kemper Stage is 1490 €, but the Quad Cortex at 1599 € seems a lot more "space age" in comparison.

 

[Orvillain]

‘Do I go with TONEX and deal with supplementing for all it doesn’t do because ‘charts and graphs’?

You are right. People aren't going to be that arsed about charts and graphs, largely speaking.

But that is their failing. The flat earthers of the guitar world.

You don't need good tones to play in a mega church. You just need a shimmer effect that is impossible to turn off.

 

[Sascha Franck]

You just need a shimmer effect that is impossible to turn off.

Muahaha!
In fact, in a mega church you only needed a method to add an octave to the entire shebang.

 

[Sascha Franck]

If we look at higher end products...a Kemper Stage is 1490 €, but the Quad Cortex at 1599 € seems a lot more "space age" in comparison.

Well, depends on how you look at it. The Stage has the "parameter lock" function and it's made for people with normal shoe sizes. Just because of those two I might likely prefer it over the QC for live playing duties.

 

[SymphonicDischord]

.
If Kemper stops innovating, eventually they will go out of business. To me they are trying to stretch their current product line as far as they can, and I would not be surprised if they are working on a next gen product but it's still several years away. Or maybe Christoph Kemper is just ok retiring and the company going out of business, he's certainly not one to follow anyone else.

Well he did abruptly pull the pin on his Access Virus synth earlier this year and it kinda feels like Kemper is following that trajectory to a degree.

 

[GTR37]

You are right. People aren't going to be that arsed about charts and graphs, largely speaking.

But that is their failing. The flat earthers of the guitar world.

You don't need good tones to play in a mega church. You just need a shimmer effect that is impossible to turn off.

What a great idea
The pedal , once you plug in the cables it’s on you just play a note and it shimmers until you un plug it

 

[creative360]

the reality is the majority of people looking at the situation see it as a terrible move from Kemper

These forums don’t represent a “majority” of people looking at the “situation”, more like the opinions of 15 people, maybe 20, and most of those are folks who have historically avoided Kemper anyway. There’s no situation. This is yet another successful product launch. And yeah some of us wish it had been handled slightly differently.

Innovation. The word is tossed around casually, but besides inventing the tech that has suddenly become so important to people who, again, avoided it for years and years, he’s invented or refined a dozen novel concepts in the software that users have come to rely on. And not too long ago he created a speaker and software system that gets folks closer to guitar cab vibes than any previous “"FRFR"”, and even more recently he created liquid profiles, to replicate “accurate” amp controls on an amp snapshot. Has anyone else lifted that one yet?

The device didn’t need it, but for all these years a lot of people were angry about how turning the knobs on the Kemper they never owned didn’t do the same thing as turning the knobs on the amp they never owned, or on the model of the amp they never owned on another device. So this innovation pleased the Internet—mind you it didn’t make the Internet happy because happiness is not part of the Internet. And sure it is actually very cool, just not completely necessary. it’s certainly innovative.

What will I buy next? Stomp. Not really, but that is a lovable little thing, especially the original. So are all the M pedals. But the full Player is a good deal and nothing out there that’s new and tiny appeals as much to me.

No need to worry about it at the moment, but my favorite form factor is still desk/amp-top. I don’t ever like bending my knee to tweak, especially in front of an audience. Unfortunately there are a couple of things, like the variable input impedance and how it reacts with the Kemper fuzz, that’s only available in the Stage. (Does anyone know if it’s also available in the Player?) Stage also has four expression jacks.

Thing is nothing cooler and chiller than gliding in to venue/studio with nothing but a gigbag over your shoulder, unless you have cartage, which is the coolest. So tiny is cool.

This topic is PlayeredOut™

Once @Whizzinby drops his new (soft-launched elsewhere) video—and agree or disagree, I’ll be one of the first to stamp it with a big heart or much love emoji—will there be anything left to say?

Of course there will be… this is me.

ymmv