jay mitchell
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It's nothing but a shorthand way of designating some who is too ignorant to realize they're ignorant. IDGAF about actual psychological pathology. The syndrome is widespread regardless of its academic validity.
IRs made with tube amps (ML Sound Lab claims)
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jay mitchell
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I know you two have a history, but can you comment on technical issues you have with his video instead of personal ones?
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Dunning-Kruger is misunderstood. It's as much, or more, about an individual's journey through knowledge than it is about the commonly accepted meaning.
When we are young and naive we think we know it all. In fact, we are quite ignorant. This is the "Peak of Mt. Stupid".
After some time spent learning our craft we realize just how little we actually know. This is the "Valley of Despair".
Eventually you start becoming conversant and understand your subject. This is the "Slope of Enlightenment".
Finally, after many years of study and work, you become an "expert". This the is the "Plateau of Sustainability".
When I got out of college I thought I was an expert. Thought because I had a Master's degree I was smarter than everybody. After a couple years I realized I didn't know sh*t. There were PhDs around me who were designing satellite comm systems and I didn't understand any of it.
So I started studying. Reading every book I could. The more I studied the more I realized I didn't know. I felt dumb and insecure. Valley of Despair.
After about 25 years I was finally at a point where I could download a paper from IEEE or AES, read it, and understand most of it. Slope of Enlightenment.
Now I read papers and I find flaws in them. Plateau of Sustainability.
It takes most of your adult life to reach the Plateau of Sustainability because you are trying to learn everything that other people have learned over most of their adult lives.
The classical interpretation of Dunning-Kruger still applies though. We see it every day on the forums. There are people who have no idea how things work that make bold proclamations. I read some of these "facts" and all I can do is sigh. There was a beauty the other day at TOP. Something about how "Joe Soundman, who has mixed sound for every single band in the world, told me that modelers make your guitar sound more out of tune than tube amps because they don't create as much harmonic content" or some nonsense like that.
When we are young and naive we think we know it all. In fact, we are quite ignorant. This is the "Peak of Mt. Stupid".
After some time spent learning our craft we realize just how little we actually know. This is the "Valley of Despair".
Eventually you start becoming conversant and understand your subject. This is the "Slope of Enlightenment".
Finally, after many years of study and work, you become an "expert". This the is the "Plateau of Sustainability".
When I got out of college I thought I was an expert. Thought because I had a Master's degree I was smarter than everybody. After a couple years I realized I didn't know sh*t. There were PhDs around me who were designing satellite comm systems and I didn't understand any of it.
So I started studying. Reading every book I could. The more I studied the more I realized I didn't know. I felt dumb and insecure. Valley of Despair.
After about 25 years I was finally at a point where I could download a paper from IEEE or AES, read it, and understand most of it. Slope of Enlightenment.
Now I read papers and I find flaws in them. Plateau of Sustainability.
It takes most of your adult life to reach the Plateau of Sustainability because you are trying to learn everything that other people have learned over most of their adult lives.
The classical interpretation of Dunning-Kruger still applies though. We see it every day on the forums. There are people who have no idea how things work that make bold proclamations. I read some of these "facts" and all I can do is sigh. There was a beauty the other day at TOP. Something about how "Joe Soundman, who has mixed sound for every single band in the world, told me that modelers make your guitar sound more out of tune than tube amps because they don't create as much harmonic content" or some nonsense like that.
paisleywookiee
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Plus, the website Orv linked sucks, and the worst part is the people who designed the website don’t even know it sucks.
I like the description you use of gaining knowledge. I have a friend who has a saying, "The moment you think you know, that's when you don't know." Her comment reminds me of Martin Buber's book "I and Thou." Forming opinions and then treating them as TRUTH is rampant. So much disinformation on the internet, most it opinion that's presented as fact.
Dimiguitar
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What is so great about it?
Dunning Kruger is most likely nonsense:
The Dunning-Kruger Effect Is Probably Not Real
I want the Dunning-Kruger effect to be real. First described in a seminal 1999 paper by David Dunning and Justin Kruger, this effect has been the darling of journalists who want to explain why dumb people don’t know they’re dumb. There’s even video of a fantastic pastiche of Turandot’s famous...www.mcgill.ca
And you shouldn't be relying on social sciences to make points anyway, due to the replicability crisis:
Replication crisis - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
In my opinion, the stuff that flopped (like power posing, ego depletion, the priming stuff) flopped for identifiable reasons though.
There's small samples, p-hacking, journals only wanting positive results... Stuff like that.
But loss aversion still works, bystander effect still works, even if DK is surely more contested.
My take away is: lets be careful what we cite, but social sciences are still very valuable.
Frodebro
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It's interesting to consider how our confidence shifts as we progress through life. When you're young and/or stupid, the instinctive thing to do is to compensate for that by putting on an air of confidence. Or, in extreme cases, arrogance. Ignorance and arrogance are a dangerous combination.
But as we gain experience, our actual confidence increases to the point that we are not as self conscious about admitting to the things we are uncertain about. Thus we are much more receptive to learning new things.
Dimiguitar
Roadie
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I think the whole "peak of overconfidence then valley of despair" journey model actually came later; from what I understand, the original 1999 paper was narrower, just about whether people could accurately judge their own test performance.
I believe the expertise journey thing kind of got fused with it somewhere along the way.
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I'm most likely going to butcher the story but I'm going off of memory here.
There once was a man who believed that lemon juice was actually invisible ink. So this man decided to rob a bank with said juice on his face to cover his identity. Smug AF, the man walks into a bank and demands cash. The police end up catching him later because they have his face on camera.
The man was heard yelling something along the lines of "but I wore the juice!"
Okay I just looked it up. The man's name was MacArthur Wheeler. The incident inspired the research of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
There once was a man who believed that lemon juice was actually invisible ink. So this man decided to rob a bank with said juice on his face to cover his identity. Smug AF, the man walks into a bank and demands cash. The police end up catching him later because they have his face on camera.
The man was heard yelling something along the lines of "but I wore the juice!"
Okay I just looked it up. The man's name was MacArthur Wheeler. The incident inspired the research of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
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I get the air of superiority, without actually having to do any of the work. It is great!
i love how this thread turn into a psychology disscussion
newholland
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heres a question for the IR folks- and apologies in advance- that aint my universe at all.
i certainly, like anybody, notice differences between how a solid state amp and a tube amp CAN cause a speaker to respond- and im sure its all readily explainable via impedance and voltage- but wouldnt a high damping factor amp react differently to transients? or would that be compensated for via whatever is running into it- be it a modeled amp or an actual tube amp?
i can see if the amp reacting into some sort if load is doubled into a big spongy ir... thatd make a mess.. but if theres a sorta a 'linear model' thats not taking the alinear aspects if reactivity being used to make irs and amp models- itd get a little weird as well.
my question is- is the amp modeling done with an eye to this kinda behavior and cabs NOT? and what IS the model that 'standardizes' IRs, and how accurate is that to the real wierdness of real reactive loads?
again- sorry if its a dumb question!
i certainly, like anybody, notice differences between how a solid state amp and a tube amp CAN cause a speaker to respond- and im sure its all readily explainable via impedance and voltage- but wouldnt a high damping factor amp react differently to transients? or would that be compensated for via whatever is running into it- be it a modeled amp or an actual tube amp?
i can see if the amp reacting into some sort if load is doubled into a big spongy ir... thatd make a mess.. but if theres a sorta a 'linear model' thats not taking the alinear aspects if reactivity being used to make irs and amp models- itd get a little weird as well.
my question is- is the amp modeling done with an eye to this kinda behavior and cabs NOT? and what IS the model that 'standardizes' IRs, and how accurate is that to the real wierdness of real reactive loads?
again- sorry if its a dumb question!
jellodog
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Also my lived experience.
5 years into my programming career I thought I was a top tier coder. I cringe every time I think about that version of me. I was about to get a rude awakening and realize that I knew nothing. The Valley of Despair was long and devastating.
Now, after over 26 years of coding I work with people that are way smarter than I am, and I still feel that I'm not in that top tier; but I at least go about my work in a humble manner.
Dimiguitar
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Why is feeling superior to people as important to us, you think?
Insecurity.
jay mitchell
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That is exactly backward. The correct statement is that the impedance load placed on the amp by a speaker affects how the amp responds.
Indeed.
"Damping factor" is profoundly misunderstood, even by experienced audio professionals who really should know better. Damping factor is frequency dependent, and the amplifier is not the only source of damping. There are also mechanical and acoustic damping forces.
The effect of amp source impedance on transients is largely confined to the frequency region around the speaker's mechanical resonance.
It should be. In the case of the modelers with which I am familiar, it is. In the case of a tube amp driving a speaker, it need not be "modeled." It is baked in.
It only needs to be modeled in one place, and it can only be modeled in the amp block.
The transfer function, aka impulse response, of a speaker is the acoustic pressure response to a frequency-independent voltage. That's it.
The source and load impedances of an amplifier form a frequency-dependent voltage divider. The impedance vs. frequency of a speaker - the load impedance - is a separate dataset from its impulse response. To model the effect a speaker's impedance has on an amp's response, the code writer must have impedance data on the specific speaker that is being modeled.
In case it is not apparent from the above, IRs contain no impedance data. That must be acquired - and accounted for - in separate processes.
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jay mitchell
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See posts #s 9 and 14. Any decent power amp - not MI/pedalboard crap, but an actual power amplifier - will provide an uncolored signal to a speaker. An IR captured using such an amp will not require "recalibration" to correct for the amp's "coloration." People who actually perform loudspeaker R&D professionally - as opposed to IR hucksters - understand this. It's a given.
Chocol8
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This is what jumped out at me. He intentionally chose an amp he knew was not neutral in order to demonstrate the need for calibration. Uh, why not just use a neutral amp?
newholland
Roadie
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nice- thanks for a complete answer!
i wonder too if things like voice coil temps (i.e. a speaker thats been under load for an hour) might be worthwhile avenues to look at for designers... lord knows my h30s sound different in that condition, and id reckon a lot would under steady state load.
super interesting how these models get made!
