Helix JCM800 2203 Request Thread (FW 3.70 new Brit 2203)!

[EOengineer]

I recently pulled out my Ceriatone 2204 which uses the late 70s 2204 spec. It’s pretty damn gainy, but not as gainy as the helix 2204.

I have the 3 way bright cap mod installed too and can confirm without a doubt that there is more going on with the HX 2204 than just a missing bright cap.

My observations are in line with those already mentioned by @James Freeman. The HX 2204 is ok-ish with vintage single coils, but totally misses “the thing” when using a Les Paul with PAFs.

At this point I’m not overly optimistic we’re going to get what we’re looking for. I know I’ve been bitching about their 800 tones since the PODxt 2.0 update when they replaced their amazing stock one with the current failpile.

 

[James Freeman]

I recently pulled out my Ceriatone 2204 which uses the late 70s 2204 spec. It’s pretty damn gainy, but not as gainy as the helix 2204.
I have the 3 way bright cap mod installed too and can confirm without a doubt that there is more going on with the HX 2204 than just a missing bright cap.

Line 6's 2204 has half the preamp modified, it is far removed from the stock amp they shouldn't even call it a 2204.
If it doesn't sound like a 2204 and it doesn't behave like a 2204, It's not a 2204.

At this point I’m not overly optimistic we’re going to get what we’re looking for. I know I’ve been bitching about their 800 tones since the PODxt 2.0 update when they replaced their amazing stock one with the current failpile.

Yes we will.
The Helix is not going to be EOL'd without a great sounding stock JCM800 2204.

 

[James Freeman]

The "thingy" is a high shelf that can be "soldered in" digitally by the user.

You can't polish a turd.
Line 6's reference 2204 is heavily modified.
No matter how I tried to tone match the Brit 2204 model with the Softube JMP 2203 I couldn't, the distortion character is very different.

 

[James Freeman]

I wonder what the state of the Line 6 amps are?

Line 6 keep their amp serviced and in great condition, see youtube "The Line 6 Amp Collection" video above.

 

[EOengineer]

Yes we will.
The Helix is not going to be EOL'd without a great sounding stock JCM800 2204.

I want you to be right.

 

[DieSchmalle]

You can't polish a turd.
Line 6's reference 2204 is heavily modified.
No matter how I tried to tone match the Brit 2204 model with the Softube JMP 2203 I couldn't, the distortion character is very different.

You obviously need to freeze the turd first. That's just science!

On a more serious note - the Marshall recipe is to combine a bright cap's early treble boost with a lame, dark, bass heavy, early roll-off channel. This way they get the highs compressed and the lows stay focused.

I couldn't really come up with a great setting to get this approach going on the Brit 2204 either.

Usually bright cap amps have small sweet spots gain-wise which is probably why L6 tends to avoid those "one trick ponies". The best walk-around to this in an amp IMHO is something like Fryette's Deliverance amp with dual gain pots - one with bright cap for voicing, one without for overdrive.

1987x ftw btw.

 

[James Freeman]

Here's my attempt to tone match the Softube JMP 2203 (1v Peak = 0dBFS) with 0.5 gain steps, I got quite close I would say.
Matching with Master at 1, all else at 5 (noon), tonestack and presence behave identically.
Line 6's 2204 poweramp response is also identical, I didn't have to do any post eq.

Download Link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FoiuptW7WZBg1mxE2nEMJ1C1VCwEMITm

 

[James Freeman]

Line 6's 2204 tonestack and presence behave identically and poweramp response is also identical, I didn't have to do any post eq.

This alone tells me Line 6 has a great 2204 on their hands and they are very capable of modeling it accurately, it's just the darn Preamp has been modified to shit.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Here's roughly what the corrective EQ is doing to fix what the bright cap is supposed to do to make the circuit work as intended. Imagine what letting all that flub into the preamp is going to do to your low end.

These EQ tweaks make the Brit 2204 sound much better, it also still misses some of the twang and attack (around 2.5kHz) of the Softube model. Still, if you want to make the 2204 sound and feel a bit more like a Marshall I'd totally recommend these.

 

[James Freeman]

The general corrective eq curve indicates that not only the bright cap and mixing caps are missing but it seems that there is an additional cathode bypass cap that adds low end and gain. As said, the preamp have been heavily modified, that's technically not a 2204 anymore.

 

[Stone]

Could Line6 not implement something like this ?

 

[James Freeman]

it also still misses some of the twang and attack (around 2.5kHz) of the Softube model.

Yeah, it's never going to be 100% with external eq matching, the harmonic content will always be different.
I can match the gain and eq curve but not the character of the distortion.

 

[DieSchmalle]

These EQ tweaks make the Brit 2204 sound much better, it also still misses some of the twang and attack (around 2.5kHz) of the Softube model. Still, if you want to make the 2204 sound and feel a bit more like a Marshall I'd totally recommend these.

You can get some twang by lowering the Bias - 4.8 is the value the AxeFx's JMP 2204 is set to.

 

[James Freeman]

1987x ftw btw.

A stock Super Lead '70s spec with 0.0022nF coupling, 4.7nF bright cap and 33k/470pF tonestack, like the one a million records?
No, we don't have those either.

 

[DieSchmalle]

For comparison here are some AxeFx II JMP2204 frequency charts with gain 1, bmtp 5 showing various bright cap values:

680pF (seems to match the Softtube chart above) :

500pF (stock value):

1000pF:

100pF:

5000pF:

no bright cap:

6dB/div

Obviously these settings (minus the last) will sound bright AF. I used it because I wanted to match @James Freeman 's Softtube chart and go from there.

 

[Jarick]

In all honesty, I haven't gotten along with HX amp modeling for a few months now. I've found that compared to Fractal, I fight too much harshness in the upper mids/highs, compression and fuzziness in the lows, and a general lack of excitement in the tone tone. It often sounds kind of mushy, lifeless, and fizzy.

This is especially true for me with Plexi style amps...I flip to them and flip right off them. I can't get them to work for me like I used to.

That's part of why I ordered another Kemper to fuss with, curious to see that tone through a real speaker cab which I haven't done before. But I'm not getting the same level of satisfaction or enjoyment out of the HX stuff like I used to.

 

[Jarick]

For bright caps, one thing to watch is how they interact with the guitar volume and the preamp gain. For me the higher the cap value on the amp model, not only the brighter it is, but also as you roll down it gets brighter just like a bright cap on the guitar. If you have a bright cap on the guitar, it's often better to have a lower value (or no cap) on the amp.

Dave Navarro said this when talking with Dave Friedman on his podcast, he had to clip the bright caps on his guitars when he switched from Marshalls to Friedmans (although I would figure the opposite should be true).

Anyways, not sure a simple high pass or tilt EQ would work to replicate it.

 

[pipelineaudio]

The Helix is not going to be EOL'd without a great sounding stock JCM800 2204.

This is how jinxes happen...This is the inevitable broken collarbone when some tool shouts 'last run for the day" at the skatepark

 

[James Freeman]

A JCM800 post a day keeps the doctor away.

Dear Line 6,
Please restore these two caps when you remodel your JCM800 2204, they are a big part of this iconic amp sound.
Thanks!

 

[norminal]

I’m no coder, but would it be that difficult for Line6 to add a bright cap and a toggle to the existing model?