metropolis_4
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You’re saying they redefined amp sim plugins and opened up a whole market by not having any unofficial models and by creating hype, hysteria, and fanboy-ism?
From: Neural DSP, re: s o o n... (Archetype Tom Morello)
- Thread starter Lysander
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You’re saying they redefined amp sim plugins and opened up a whole market by not having any unofficial models and by creating hype, hysteria, and fanboy-ism?
Foxmeister
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I have yet to be convinced that this is actually what they are doing...
Whilst there is almost certainly a machine learning element to their models, I read sentences like this, and I start looking for wool coming down over my
! 
https://neuraldsp.com/news/a-new-audio-engine-powering-neural-dsp-plugins
That's what I said 2 pages ago.
Could be smart, it's a great amp and not many modelers have it, they usually focus on 800 and plexi.
MirrorProfiles
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hmm that makes sense to me - ML is particularly fussy about sample rates, so if they’re improving the internal conversion to what the plugin wants to see, it checks out?I have yet to be convinced that this is actually what they are doing...
Whilst there is almost certainly a machine learning element to their models, I read sentences like this, and I start looking for wool coming down over my
https://neuraldsp.com/news/a-new-audio-engine-powering-neural-dsp-plugins
I mean I have no idea, but the people who started the company’s background is specifically in using neural networks for modelling distortion. It’s basically the same concept of how NAM is doing things, Steve just did his own take on it which coincidently seemed to be quite similar to their approach.
paisleywookiee
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I wouldn’t use NDSP simply because their paradigm is beyond stupid with the separate plugins for everything. Criticize IK all you want, but they did it far better with their Custom Shop.
Foxmeister
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Neither NAM, nor ToneX, nor the QC, can "model" an amp with all the controls.
NDSP also have a quite a few original amp "models" in their plug-ins, so I'm wondering what they would be able to train a neural net against if there isn't a real amp involved, or at least a component level model, in which case why would you need the ML model?
So, I'm sceptical of their claims, but I'm I do like their plug-ins, so I don't really care, and as such I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt!
MirrorProfiles
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Exactly my point. Just to be clear, when I’m talking about Neural DSP using machine learning for their plugins, I don’t mean the capturing tech on the QC (which is like a kemper essentially, there’s no ML involved). I mean for the amp sim plugins. Those are ML based, with all settings and switches and modes available. No idea what the tech is on the models on QC.
The only NDSP plugin that I’m not sure of the original amps is Abasi - no idea if that’s blending some conventional DSP, or if it’s capturing a custom amp, or blending different ML models. Everything else is ML from a reference amplifier, it’s pretty easy to work out what the source amps are, Neural haven’t really made much effort to cover it up in their code and people have opened them up (I have a feeling the preamps and poweramps may be done seperately). I’d guess the same tech is how the models in QC work (given that’s their area of expertise, but I have no idea). Presumably a lot of the models were already done for the Archetype plugins.
Foxmeister
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Not sure what you mean here - I agree the Kemper doesn't use ML, but NDSP certainly makes the claim that the Quad Cortex does.
This is my entire point - I'm sceptical of the claim that their plug-ins are ML based.
MirrorProfiles
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For the QC capturing tech, have a think about how much time and computational power the likes of NAM and ToneX need to make a model, even on the most light/low quality settings. QC is doing it basically in real-time after the training signal is reamped. I think the open cortex project has worked out that QC’s capture tech is no different (in concept) to how Kemper works, and that doesn’t surprise me given the parameters around how it needs to work.
That doesn’t mean the plugins don’t use ML though - it’s very well established that they are doing black box modelling and using neural networks to train models. You can doubt it all you like, but that’s what’s going on - totally different approach to Fractal/Line 6 etc.
GTR37
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Can’t be a JM800 the QC already has one of thoseNah, the feet don't match. It's definitely a Marshall of some sort.
There's a new S o o N e R
Foxmeister
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It hasn't been established - it has been claimed, and claimed by the same company that has also said they are using ML for their captures, which you've already conceded you are sceptical about!
Lysander
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Oh, you sweet summer child... *laughs in SLO100*
Rocco Crocco
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From TheOtherPlace 
GTR37
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In their Defence they did come back and fix that one lol
MirrorProfiles
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Well there are pretty obvious reasons to conclude that it’s most probable they are using ML to do their plugins, just in there are very obvious clues that the QC captures are doing some kind of Kemper style matching.
If you think it’s all a facade and they’re really just Audio Assault with nicer UI’s, then fair enough.
Check out the (Finnish sounding) names of these papers and then have a look which companies they may be affiliated with.
GitHub - GuitarML/mldsp-papers: Collection of papers related to neural nets/machine learning for audio DSP.
Collection of papers related to neural nets/machine learning for audio DSP. - GuitarML/mldsp-papers
github.com
https://acris.aalto.fi/ws/portalfiles/portal/41964332/Real_time_guitar_amplifier_emulation.pdf - what do you reckon @Foxmeister ?
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MirrorProfiles
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For the time, that was a pretty nifty and unique GUI. So was Podfarm.
From 2010:
I mean... you did say this guv:
Which IMHO gives them more benefit of the doubt than they deserve. If anything, Neural are a completely 'me too' company, following well trodden paths for both feature sets and UI design. They're not at all revolutionary and didn't redefine anything.
They throw insane amounts of cash at marketing and design, much in the same way that ROLI did, but it truly does seem that they completely starve their development teams of resources and funding - again, much like ROLI did.
I aint falling for the hype. Seen too much of it in my time.
MirrorProfiles
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When I say UI, I don't just mean a big amp centre screen though, no one deserves credit for that because its the obvious thing to do for absolutely any amp sim. I mean how the user interacts with the plugin - there is minimal clicking to get a tone going, simple & clear interface, a standalone app etc.
I mean each plugin being preconfigured with input->pedals->amp->cab (with moveable mics etc)->FX->output. No diving through menu's to get a tone going, its all ready to go with minimal clicks. And there were others (Sturgis Toneforge is sort of like that as well as Audio Assault), but nothing that made the competition take notice in the same way. It would be insane to suggest that how they present their plugins hasn't influenced the market. I'm definitely not suggesting its just down to the UI/presentation of their plugins - it was the new technology, ease of use, how it was marketed, official tie ins with brands and musicians/bands. I'm still not sure they've really been overtaken for that style of plugin - Metallurgy and Audio Assault are similar but way clunkier to use. Many others don't have standalone versions and often require more faffing around to get use out of.
Podfarm was good at the time, and certainly had some influence over what followed, but its also quite dated by comparison. I think how NDSP presents their software is quite different to that approach.
If I was talking about the QC then I could see the parallels with your experiences with ROLI. I don't really see the same level of shittiness with their plugins though. Even as a company, its not like they've been snapping up other companies or startups and running them into the ground. They work as expected and rarely have issues, at least in my experience. All marketing is annoying to me and I don't really find NDSP's plugin marketing to be that bad in all honesty. Give me that any day of the week over snide viagra passive aggressive emails or daily offers from IK on products I already own. Most plugin companies are advertising constantly these days, its a crowded and competitive marketplace.
I am a fan of official tie in's where possible. That has no bearing on whether something is good or not, but its something I'd like to see more of.
metropolis_4
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I’m still kind of scratching my head… I went through a phase of collecting every single amp sim plug-in I could find and pretty much every single one worked this way.
I’m still not seeing anything in what you’ve said that shows anything NDSP has done that is “redefining” or innovating. They didn’t do anything that wasn’t already being done by several other companies.
They jumped in the market with a solid offering that sounded good and looked pretty and they did a good job with the marketing
