From: Neural DSP, re: s o o n... (Archetype Tom Morello)

[Tanax]

Could be a JVM410 also

 

[Lysander]

But Devin has been using Fractal for years.

Been saying it for a while, NDSP creating a plugin based on a Fractal model would just be

 

[Rickboot]

Been saying it for a while, NDSP creating a plugin based on a Fractal model would just be

 

[Rickboot]

It would have to be kept up to date with the constant evolution of fractal firmware and modeling updates.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Neural DSP is like the company version of the Facebook group: “Single Moms Overestimate their Market Value”. Where they ask for piles of money but really aren’t bringing anything to the table aside from promises

 

[Jarick]

Neural DSP is like the company version of the Facebook group: “Single Moms Overestimate their Market Value”. Where they ask for piles of money but really aren’t bringing anything to the table aside from promises

Okay I had to request to join to see what’s up.

 

[Lysander]

Okay I had to request to join to see what’s up.

No! Don't walk into the light!

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Where they ask for piles of money but really aren’t bringing anything to the table aside from promises

I mean..... They did essentially redefine guitar amp sim plugins for the most part, and also opened up a whole area of the market (selling 1-4 amp models with big UI's, pre-routed FX, cabinet IR section with moveable mics etc):

Regardless of how the company operates of all the things they've made mistakes on, they've had a huge impact and influence on the industry. AFAIK, all updates they've ever done have been free and generally I think their prices are very affordable (and have generally dictated what other similar amp sims are charging since).

I get the animosity towards them, but I think its better to focus those remarks to the things they are actually doing badly, because there's definitely a lot they get spot on.

 

[Foxmeister]

I get the animosity towards them, but I think its better to focus those remarks to the things they are actually doing badly, because there's definitely a lot they get spot on.

There's very much a tendency to "pile on" to NDSP these days.

As an ex-QC owner and current owner of several NDSP plug-ins, I do feel that we should treat the QC and the plug-ins separately because it does seem to me that the vast majority of the antipathy towards NDSP relates to the QC (including the data breach) rather than the plug-ins.

Yes, it is the same company, but I don't see the point of bringing up all the issues surrounding the QC every time a new plug-in is released.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Yes, it is the same company, but I don't see the point of bringing up all the issues surrounding the QC every time a new plug-in is released.

I agree - slow Apple Silicone support aside, the plugins are very reliable, priced well and deliver what they advertise. If they didn’t have a good reputation off the plugins, the QC really wouldn’t have got off the ground (some might argue it didn’t anyway).

They’re far from the slowest with M1 support too. The NDSP plugin threads seem full of complaining for complaining sake, from people who largely don’t own or really plan on owning either a QC or their plugins.

 

[the-trooper]

I mean..... They did essentially redefine guitar amp sim plugins for the most part, and also opened up a whole area of the market (selling 1-4 amp models with big UI's

Regarding your screenshots and "big UI" note, I think Audio assault actually came out first with that UI approach.
Although I'm not certain, to lazy to go Google diving for dates.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Regarding your screenshots and "big UI" note, I think Audio assault actually came out first with that UI approach.
Although I'm not certain, to lazy to go Google diving for dates.

even if they were doing it similarly, I don’t think anyone would argue that Audio Assault are really having much influence on the rest of the market. As much as I’d love to buy everyone’s amp sims for $5

 

[Lysander]

I mean..... They did essentially redefine guitar amp sim plugins for the most part, and also opened up a whole area of the market (selling 1-4 amp models with big UI's, pre-routed FX, cabinet IR section with moveable mics etc).

There have been a number of products doing this before NDSP (Amplitube and Audio Assault come to mind). What they got right were really good sounding models, great cab selections and immediately usable presets wrapped in a straightforward UI - and a pricepoint to match. As a result, and by all accounts, they're making a killing selling plugins.

There's no denying they make good sounding stuff, but their plugin lineup is starting to become too fractured across multiple products, with overlapping features, IMHO.

 

[laxu]

There's very much a tendency to "pile on" to NDSP these days.

As an ex-QC owner and current owner of several NDSP plug-ins, I do feel that we should treat the QC and the plug-ins separately because it does seem to me that the vast majority of the antipathy towards NDSP relates to the QC (including the data breach) rather than the plug-ins.

Yes, it is the same company, but I don't see the point of bringing up all the issues surrounding the QC every time a new plug-in is released.

Agreed.

The main criticism I can give the NDSP plugins is that there is no "suite" option that would let you bundle all your plugins together to use as one. Sure, you can load them in a DAW or VST host but that's definitely not the same as "one thing to control them" type deal like you have in e.g Amplitube 5 or how something like Helix Native works as one software.

As a business model it's smart. It ties into the "collector" mentality a lot of digital modeler users have. I mean just look at all the cries for this and that amp model on any modeler's forums. So selling those as separate things, tied to some popular artists, with great presets out of the box is a good business model compared to what other makers do where they might have a plugin of a particular amp but without the tie-ins to artists or the presets to deliver a "launch it and get a great tone" experience.

I feel that a lot of guitarists are not interested in learning the ins and outs of their gear so they chase preset solutions. Things like preset packs for modelers seem to sell and of course forums are full of "how do I get tone of my favorite artist" requests.

That's like the total opposite for me, I build all my presets from scratch to my liking, have played tons of amps over the years so I know how to work them and have learned a ton about the tech side of guitar...should have probably spent more of that on theory but that's no fun! In any case that knowledge translates to being able to easily work with say Fractal or Line6 while others might find them overwhelming and difficult.

But that still doesn't mean that I love endless tweaking, it's great when you can get a tone you like with ease and focus on the playing. I think NeuralDSP does that very well with all their plugins. It has usually taken only few clicks to find a preset that is almost to my liking and tweak it a little. That has big value. The modeling, cabs, effects etc are otherwise not in any way better than what others are making.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

There have been a number of products doing this before NDSP (Amplitube and Audio Assault come to mind). What they got right were really good sounding models, great cab selections and immediately usable presets wrapped in a straightforward UI - and a pricepoint to match. As a result, and by all accounts, they're making a killing selling plugins.

There's no denying they make good sounding stuff, but their plugin lineup is starting to become too fractured across multiple products, with overlapping features, IMHO.

Not sure I’d say Amplitube fits the same UI approach - there’s WAY more clicking around, and options with different amps/models/pedals/FX/routing etc. It’s more of an “all in one” than a suite of plugins.

I have no idea if Audio Assault were first but as I said above - I don’t think they’re really having a great deal of influence on the rest of the market. I own most of their plugins and they are no way near as slick to use as other products. Things like TSE made amp sims years ago, but again I don’t think they really had as much influence over others as far as UI design goes.

But yeah - NDSP really burst onto the scene with great sounding (and innovative) tech, that was well marketed. The products are good, I don’t think there’s really much debate there when you look at how tremendously successful they’ve been. Will be interesting to see if NAM can achieve ML sims with full controls and bespoke UI’s, but I suspect the amount of work involved may make it difficult to make the experience as nice.

There are valid criticisms against the plugins - similar FX, similar choices of amps, no unified plugin to host all their products. But IMO they’re pretty minor concerns and generally are only an issue to people who want the products more than they need them.

 

[Lysander]

The main criticism I can give the NDSP plugins is that there is no "suite" option that would let you bundle all your plugins together to use as one. Sure, you can load them in a DAW or VST host but that's definitely not the same as "one thing to control them" type deal like you have in e.g Amplitube 5 or how something like Helix Native works as one software.

+1

I noticed f.ex. effects seem to be the exact same across their plugin suites/archetypes. The fact that you cannot mix-and-match features across them bothers me a bit - you do end up paying multiple times for the same thing.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Agreed.

The main criticism I can give the NDSP plugins is that there is no "suite" option that would let you bundle all your plugins together to use as one. Sure, you can load them in a DAW or VST host but that's definitely not the same as "one thing to control them" type deal like you have in e.g Amplitube 5 or how something like Helix Native works as one software.

As a business model it's smart. It ties into the "collector" mentality a lot of digital modeler users have. I mean just look at all the cries for this and that amp model on any modeler's forums. So selling those as separate things, tied to some popular artists, with great presets out of the box is a good business model compared to what other makers do where they might have a plugin of a particular amp but without the tie-ins to artists or the presets to deliver a "launch it and get a great tone" experience.

I feel that a lot of guitarists are not interested in learning the ins and outs of their gear so they chase preset solutions. Things like preset packs for modelers seem to sell and of course forums are full of "how do I get tone of my favorite artist" requests.

That's like the total opposite for me, I build all my presets from scratch to my liking, have played tons of amps over the years so I know how to work them and have learned a ton about the tech side of guitar...should have probably spent more of that on theory but that's no fun! In any case that knowledge translates to being able to easily work with say Fractal or Line6 while others might find them overwhelming and difficult.

But that still doesn't mean that I love endless tweaking, it's great when you can get a tone you like with ease and focus on the playing. I think NeuralDSP does that very well with all their plugins. It has usually taken only few clicks to find a preset that is almost to my liking and tweak it a little. That has big value. The modeling, cabs, effects etc are otherwise not in any way better than what others are making.

Totally agree with this.

I think ultimately much of their success lies in the simplicity of using their plugins - amplitube is so clunky and slow to use. Softube Amp Room too just isn’t as fast to get things going with. Helix is great, but lacks the GUI’s and speed of NDSP (or what they did with Metallurgy).

 

[laxu]

There's no denying they make good sounding stuff, but their plugin lineup is starting to become too fractured across multiple products, with overlapping features, IMHO.

I agree. I could take the Soldano or Petrucci plugin and do probably 95% of what I'd ever need.

What most guitarists need are a couple of good amp sounds, a handful of effects etc so packaging that in different formats works well for them. If they didn't, people would cry about not getting "common effect A" in plugin B but it being in plugin C.

A suite type product would help put them all together but the current plugins are unlikely to be built to support that. I fully expect a lot of the NDSP effects are just reskinned to look different in different plugins, maybe with some minor tweaks.

 

[Lysander]

I think ultimately much of their success lies in the simplicity of using their plugins - amplitube is so clunky and slow to use. Softube Amp Room too just isn’t as fast to get things going with.

I usually joke about NDSP building their business on excellent presets... but there's probably more truth to that than most people would like to admit. I'm pretty sure a large number of users never venture past these.

Same deal with the QC, btw - that thing comes with great presets. I had a blast playing the very first stock preset on my QC back then (Brit 2203), or things like Toxic Synth.

 

[metropolis_4]

I mean..... They did essentially redefine guitar amp sim plugins for the most part, and also opened up a whole area of the market (selling 1-4 amp models with big UI's, pre-routed FX, cabinet IR section with moveable mics etc):

Let’s not go too crazy

They didn’t do anything new or innovative with plugins that wasn’t already being done by several other companies. They didn’t redefine amp sim plugins or open up any new markets.

Their plugins became popular because they were well designed/implemented and sound great