Free updates - where does it stop?

eggpl@nt said:
We’re also very conveniently ignoring a more appropriate comparison of the Helix Rack + Controller + Exp Pedal, but I am not an economist / business analyst so what do I know.
Click to expand...

Yup. And even then, the two 1.25 GHz Keystone processors in the AF3 are not at all similar to what's in the Helix rack, in terms of processing power, bandwidth or latency. The AF3 is another step up in terms of hardware performance and it seems entirely reasonable for that to be reflected in price.

I have lived in Australia though, and it's true - Australians do get really screwed on the cost of electronics as well as other things. Much like the sucky consumer experience in Canada, but slightly worse.
 
Last edited:
jellodog said:
Yup. And even then, the two 1.25 GHz Keystone processors in the AF3 are not at all similar to what's in the Helix rack, in terms of processing power, bandwidth or latency. The AF3 is another step up in terms of hardware performance and it seems entirely reasonable for that to be reflected in price.

I have lived in Australia though, and it's true - Australians do get really screwed on the cost of electronics as well as other things. Much like the sucky consumer experience in Canada, but slightly worse.
Click to expand...

TSJMajesty said:
I didn't see anyone claiming you were. I took your post to be purely financial. It does seem to be a lot more expensive there.
Click to expand...

For the record ... a quick search here in Oz has the Helix Rack + Floor Controller + Decent Exp Pedal at around $3700 ...... compared to $7174 for the Axe + FC + EV1.

Ben
 
In Spain, tobacco costs 1/5 of what it does in the USA

Food is also less than half as expensive as in the US

What can you infer?
 
fretworn said:
In Spain, tobacco costs 1/5 of what it does in the USA

Food is also less than half as expensive as in the US

What can you infer?
Click to expand...

flying_circus_meme.jpg
 
jellodog said:
Yup. And even then, the two 1.25 GHz Keystone processors in the AF3 are not at all similar to what's in the Helix rack, in terms of processing power, bandwidth or latency. The AF3 is another step up in terms of hardware performance and it seems entirely reasonable for that to be reflected in price.

I have lived in Australia though, and it's true - Australians do get really screwed on the cost of electronics as well as other things. Much like the sucky consumer experience in Canada, but slightly worse.
Click to expand...
Yeah I think the FM9 vs Helix anything is a far more apt comparison, even though Fractal doesn't come out from that very favorably either since the cost is about 50% more in EU.

Helix is without doubt the value king of current modelers and from what Line6 guys have told on forums, they've worked pretty damn hard to have the component supply to stay that way. I'm sure Fractal has similar challenges, even more so since they aren't backed by the purchasing power of Yamaha. So I totally understand it's difficult to compete with cost when you account for longer EU warranty, shipping from the US, G66 takes their own cut etc.

I see the Axe-Fx 3 as the "luxury car" of modelers so it's fine that it's more expensive. Most people don't need its immense horsepower and the few that do, have basically no other option because it's in its own category as far as processing power goes. It's way overkill for my uses where FM3 (after CPU usage was improved) would do 90% of what I'd ever need and FM9 would do 100% without breaking a sweat. FM9 just wasn't available so I bought the Axe-Fx 3 used instead.

Australians definely have it worst for gear costs. Finland is expensive, but guitar gear prices are generally still in line with mainland Europe, tax percentage differences aside. If not, often you can haggle in stores or you just order from Thomann etc. If anything Thomann has forced local stores adjust their pricing to compete, they used to be way higher.
 
When it becomes just a little more ergonomic for laptops to be more common on stages, a whole nother beast enters the game that absolutely smokes them all in DSP, but likely never latency
 
pipelineaudio said:
When it becomes just a little more ergonomic for laptops to be more common on stages, a whole nother beast enters the game that absolutely smokes them all in DSP, but likely never latency
Click to expand...
I've been to a number of synthwave gigs where the guitars were from laptop and VST plugins. It was apt for the genre, but would look pretty weird at a classic rock gig.

Dedicated hardware does have the "a lot of stuff done for you already" advantage though. One of my coworkers does a one man band thing where he has a laptop, MIDI keyboard, audio interface and mic as his whole setup. He told me he basically had to buy a gaming laptop to be able to get something powerful enough (and remains cool enough) to run the shitload of VST synths, drum machines, vocal processing and whatnot to run the whole setup and it took him probably like over a year to get it working the way he wanted. Overall cost for the laptop is not far off from an Axe-Fx 3 if I remember correctly.

By comparison if you buy a guitar modeler unit, a lot of that programming work is done for you already and you don't need to worry about latency, MIDI mapping etc.

That said, my vision for future modelers would be more modular devices where you don't need to have a big 3-4 rack unit box because of the front panel user interface but instead control it all from either separate hardware controllers (preferably purpose built by manufacturer), your computer, mobile devices and the "brain" box is just DSP and I/O. While that sounds a lot like "computer + peripherals", there's just no great MIDI controller out there that is suited for that sort of editing tasks and most plugins don't support MIDI control at the level where it would work seamlessly and map based on context.
 
Eagle said:
Quad cortex update’s haven’t even reached the launch promised features yet.
Click to expand...

And it never will, the updates are below pathetic, might as well say they stopped and you will not be wrong.
The biggest crowd funded fraud in the music industry in decades, with zero liability.

A smart consumer will of course remember this and will be wary if a product with similar pre-order and marketing pattern shows up.
 
Last edited:
BenIfin said:
Not wanting to start anything but I respectfully disagree.

It was/is a very simple comparison between the two "top of the line" products for each brand ... each brands units with the most features and bells and whistles etc.... so I think it is extremely fair and "accurate".

Your point goes more to "parts and power" which are doubtless very relevant also in cost terms.

Regardless .... even allowing for this ..... i.m.h.o ... the price differences here in Oz between the "2 top of the line units" are simply preposterously absurd and cannot be justified on any level ... again this is just my view.

The US price differential is less, but still not too far off x2 the price.

I'll leave it at that.

Ben "retired Economist, Accountant and Business Analyst" Ifin

Ps: And if there are any responses can we please spare the "and how many modelers have you designed and brought to market" argument :)
Click to expand...
You compared a melon with a hole cut into it, to a top of the range full bluetooth capable fleshlight.
 
FWIW, that was just a joke. I get your point. I just think you need to compare feature-set, enclosure type, and capabilities, in a true like for like fashion. Computationally, I think the Axe III Turbo is more akin to 1.5x Helix Floors, to pull a number completely out of my ass. The more appropriate comparison is against the FM9.

Which to be fair, here in the UK, the FM9 is still £2000. Whereas the Helix Floor is around £1250. So you're not entirely wrong about the price differences. I put it down to the dealers adding a huge fuck off mark up, and Fractal not wanting to rock the boat by opening up to more dealers and allowing some competition in the marketplace.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.
 
Orvillain said:
FWIW, that was just a joke. I get your point. I just think you need to compare feature-set, enclosure type, and capabilities, in a true like for like fashion. Computationally, I think the Axe III Turbo is more akin to 1.5x Helix Floors, to pull a number completely out of my ass. The more appropriate comparison is against the FM9.

Which to be fair, here in the UK, the FM9 is still £2000. Whereas the Helix Floor is around £1250. So you're not entirely wrong about the price differences. I put it down to the dealers adding a huge f**k off mark up, and Fractal not wanting to rock the boat by opening up to more dealers and allowing some competition in the marketplace.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.
Click to expand...
Dealers don't have much mark up at all that's why they are going out of business all the time.
 
Eagle said:
Dealers don't have much mark up at all that's why they are going out of business all the time.
Click to expand...
I think you might be being a little black and white there. I don't know what the mark-up is on an Axe FX III, but it aint going to be tiny.

Dealers will be around as long as companies don't want the infrastructural hassle of setting up their own supply chains.
 
Orvillain said:
You compared a melon with a hole cut into it, to a top of the range full bluetooth capable fleshlight.
Click to expand...

Orvillain said:
FWIW, that was just a joke. I get your point. I just think you need to compare feature-set, enclosure type, and capabilities, in a true like for like fashion. Computationally, I think the Axe III Turbo is more akin to 1.5x Helix Floors, to pull a number completely out of my ass. The more appropriate comparison is against the FM9.

Which to be fair, here in the UK, the FM9 is still £2000. Whereas the Helix Floor is around £1250. So you're not entirely wrong about the price differences. I put it down to the dealers adding a huge f**k off mark up, and Fractal not wanting to rock the boat by opening up to more dealers and allowing some competition in the marketplace.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.
Click to expand...

:giggle: Hey Orvillain !

All good ! Got a great laugh out of the first post .... had a much needed chuckle :)

Yep ... those UK prices are pretty darn f%cked as well.

Can only speak re:- my view / experience here in Oz ..... like I wrote above, when you see a modeler in use here live ... %99.99 of the time its a Helix or KPA ... along with a QC or Boss every now and then.

A few years ago ... in my view ... Fractal could pretty easily run the "we are the best modeler by a mile so you gotta pay" line and usually get away with it ..... nowadays, just using Helix as an example, the audio/feel differences are virtually, or actually, non-existent ... personal preferences notwithstanding of course.

I.m.h.o ..... Fractal can maintain their [relatively] "extreme" pricing "premium" for 2 reasons ..... they are a very small, closely held, almost fully vertically integrated company - which is the way doubtlessly Cliff wants it and more power to him ! .... but the result of that is very limited and erratic supply which means the "niche-Fractal-market-within-the-niche-modeler-market" buyers who "simply must" have a Fractal for whatever reason are - so far at least - willing to wait and pay through their a#se for one.

Its an amazing product ... but so too are the other top units ... people are increasingly, if not already, clicking on to that.

I mean .... FFS sake ... an Axe 3 + FC + EV1 will set you back [new] here $7,174 .... and if that's not bad enough, they you still got to buy a good Amp and good FRFR Speaker .... its f&cking hilarious - NOT !

Anyway ... its all just pontification on my part :)

My apologies for all the italicizing, underlining, both and "quotations" ... I'm on medications for it :)

Ben
 
Last edited:
BenIfin said:
:giggle: Hey Orvillain !

All good ! Got a great laugh out of the first post .... had a much needed chuckle :)

Yep ... those UK prices are pretty darn f%cked as well.

Can only speak re:- my view / experience here in Oz ..... like I wrote above, when you see a modeler in use here live ... %99.99 of the time its a Helix or KPA ... along with a QC or Boss every now and then.

A few years ago ... in my view ... Fractal could pretty easily run the "we are the best modeler by a mile so you gotta pay" line and usually get away with it ..... nowadays, just using Helix as an example, the audio/feel differences are virtually, or actually, non-existent ... personal preferences notwithstanding of course.

I.m.h.o ..... Fractal can maintain their [relatively] "extreme" pricing "premium" for 2 reasons ..... they are a very small, closely held, almost fully vertically integrated company - which is the way doubtlessly Cliff wants it and more power to him ! .... but the result of that is very limited and erratic supply which means the "niche-Fractal-market-within-the-niche-modeler-market" buyers who "simply must" have a Fractal for whatever reason are - so far at least - willing to wait and pay through their a#se for one.

Its an amazing product ... but so too are the other top units ... people are increasingly, if not already, clicking on to that.

I mean .... FFS sake ... an Axe 3 + FC + EV1 will set you back [new] here $7,174 .... and if that's not bad enough, they you still got to buy a good Amp and good FRFR Speaker .... its f&cking hilarious - NOT !

Anyway ... its all just pontification on my part :)

My apologies for all the italicizing, underlining, both and "quotations" ... I'm on medications for it :)

Ben
Click to expand...
So Ben…

What’s your point?
 
BenIfin said:
Fractal can maintain their [relatively] "extreme" pricing "premium"
Click to expand...
This implies the FAS can dictate the price at which their distributors sell their products. In my industry, in the US, this is illegal. I’m not sure how much power FAS actually has in this regard.

Some additional commentary on this thread. I don’t imagine this is news to you, Ben, but for those of us in the peanut gallery following along….

The $4887 AUD price of the Axe Fx III Mk II translates to $3227 USD. In the US, we can buy direct from Fractal, so there’s no distributor markup. Some Googling says that 30~40% margin is common in MI. Let’s call it 35%.

In the US, the Axe III costs $2300, direct from Fractal. (I’m ignoring the current sale.) With the 35% markup, this theoretical purchase through a dealer in the US would cost $3105 USD, which is $4650 AUD. Pretty close to what Independent Music charges for the Axe III.

I understand the cost is exorbitant in your market. No argument there. But the math checks out and doesn’t seem exploitative or objectively unreasonable. Ultimately, the high price tag is due to the weak Australian dollar and the distributor markup.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top