Free updates - where does it stop?

paisleywookiee said:
Yup, sounds right. People need to remember that once something gets to a retailer, it’s 30% usually off of MAP. So, for a Helix Floor it’d be $1259, give or take. But wait! Unless there’s a shipping deal, the retailer pays that. Oh, and then the buyer expects free shipping. Then, if it’s on Reverb, that’s another 5%+3.5%.

Then people b*tch because they can’t get a great deal, but then “hmmm, I wonder why all the small shops are closed?”

Because people care only about the almighty dollar, and nothing more. Service doesn’t mean s**t.
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100% agree, but sometimes there are other variables to factor in:

This afternoon, I wanna buy strings, a nice cable, and a tuner for one of my best friends who just started out. A buddy chipped in and bought a used amp (that we're paying together).

I initially planned to head a local store after I'm done with work, and pick things up personally, but now I'm contemplating just ordering online from Th*mann, even if it's not even in our country.

Here's why: brick'n'mortar instrument stores have died out during the last decade, and there's one "useful" store, but it's located in an industrial fringe district on the other end of this big city.

Meaning: 1 hour ride, probably 30 minutes inside the mall, then 1 hour back home. :(

Th*mann: a couple clicks and 1-2 days wait time.

Ugh...... I'm actually pretty torn.
 
It is also interesting to see 'how' the updates stop.
For example, when a successor product is released, do they keep releasing a few last updates for the predecessor or immediately stop?
I assume every company will do things differently depending on how successful the previous product was.

I know Fractal has always released a few more updates for last gen along side with the new successor, then announced discontinuation of support.
It will be interesting to see how Line 6 does things, Helix being their first product with prolonged updates.
 
James Freeman said:
It is also interesting to see 'how' the updates stop.
For example, when a successor product is released, do they keep releasing a few last updates for the predecessor or immediately stop?
I assume every company will do things differently depending on how successful the previous product was.

I know Fractal has always released a few more updates for last gen along side with the new successor, then announced discontinuation of support.
It will be interesting to see how Line 6 does things, Helix being their first product with prolonged updates.
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My guess is Helix might get some bug fixes but no new features. With Line6 having a much more lengthy development cycle for each firmware update, that might amount to 1-2 updates.

For Fractal it will depend on things like "is there still firmware space available." The last Axe-Fx 2 and AX8 updates ported some of the Axe-Fx 3 amp modeling stuff, kind of like a last gift.
 
Another thought, as DSP becomes more powerful the product can last longer and have more updates, but it also opens the possibility to start over with a completely new Software/UI on the same hardware, like computer operating systems.
I don't know how it sits with making profit, but if the hardware is powerful enough why change it at all?
I also understand that a 'vision' of a product like a guitar processor is more or less fixed, I can't think of any guitar product that completely changed on the same hardware, we're not there yet.
 
James Freeman said:
I know Fractal has always released a few more updates for last gen along side with the new successor, then announced discontinuation of support.
It will be interesting to see how Line 6 does things, Helix being their first product with prolonged updates.
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I think Helix updates post a new Line 6 flagship will very much depend on what happens with the Pod Go, and on how much of the "new tech" in any Helix successor is based on HX modelling.

If the Pod Go is still actively supported when the successor to Helix is released, it seems to me that Line 6 could let Pod Go "lead" future developments. with Helix/HX units eventually getting updates to include these, as opposed to the current situation which is the polar opposite of this.
 
James Freeman said:
Another thought, as DSP becomes more powerful the product can last longer and have more updates, but it also opens the possibility to start over with a completely new Software/UI on the same hardware, like computer operating systems.
I don't know how it sits with making profit, but if the hardware is powerful enough why change it at all?
I also understand that a 'vision' of a product like a guitar processor is more or less fixed, I can't think of any guitar product that completely changed on the same hardware, we're not there yet.
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It totally depends on what you call enough. You could easily say axe 3 is enough now but who's to say that a degrees of magnitude for power increase couldn't be better? When you got to a point that human hearing was not capable of decreeing the difference it would probably be the time to stop with the hardware in terms of performance but who's to say a better form factor couldn't be conceived. I want to see some better dedicated amplification because it's isn't capable of amp in the room by a long way at the moment. It's not over until that is done as well. When I can place an "FRFR" on the floor in front of me and it be impossible to tell it from the vintage twin reverb next too it ( both dry amp tone) in tone and feel, then it will be done.
 
Foxmeister said:
I think Helix updates post a new Line 6 flagship will very much depend on what happens with the Pod Go, and on how much of the "new tech" in any Helix successor is based on HX modelling.

If the Pod Go is still actively supported when the successor to Helix is released, it seems to me that Line 6 could let Pod Go "lead" future developments. with Helix/HX units eventually getting updates to include these, as opposed to the current situation which is the polar opposite of this.
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Line 6 always drops everything as soon as the new product comes out . I for one don't want to try and get a replacement for that ridiculous joystick push turn encoder when they stop support 10 minutes after the next gen appears.
 
James Freeman said:
Another thought, as DSP becomes more powerful the product can last longer and have more updates, but it also opens the possibility to start over with a completely new Software/UI on the same hardware, like computer operating systems.
I don't know how it sits with making profit, but if the hardware is powerful enough why change it at all?
I also understand that a 'vision' of a product like a guitar processor is more or less fixed, I can't think of any guitar product that completely changed on the same hardware, we're not there yet.
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For me the issue with Fractal is both hardware and software. Axe-Edit is the yardstick for how easy it can be to work with, but even that misses the convenience of being able to just turn physical knobs like on an amp or pedal rather than adjust them virtually with a mouse/scroll wheel/keyboard.

I've been asking for better MIDI controller support for that reason. I've even tried building some software of my own to do it via Sysex commands but so far haven't been able to crack it as I am just not very good at dealing with bit operation stuff or debugging Sysex since I don't do anything like that in my normal work.

When the Axe-Fx 3 was released, I was very disappointed in how little they did to improve the control layout, while throwing some of the more useful dedicated setup menu buttons out. The placement of the nav keys, that big ass main knob and the buttons around it just plain sucks. I think a lot of people operate these with one hand on their guitar and one hand adjusting stuff and it requires a lot of back and forth hand movement to adjust the under screen knobs and swap between rows of controls. Often it's actually faster to tap the nav keys and turn the big knob than go for the under screen knobs.

With the hardware remaining static there is only so much you can do with software updates to improve it. Without the front panel the Axe-Fx 3 could be shrunk to 2U by condensing some of the I/O in the back (e.g no XLR+1/4" options for the same outs, no separate MIDI thru jack). Maybe even 1U would be possible but might require ditching some I/O. It won't make much of a difference for you and me, but could be a factor for the professionals with multiple Axe-Fx 3's in a rack like the recent Dave Murray rig or what Petrucci uses.

The next gen modelers are going to duke it out on usability more than anything. That's the last area where there's significant advances to be made while throwing more processing power at the sounds is only going to make a small difference. I already feel the Axe-Fx 3 amp modeling sounds/feels just as good as the tube amps I had, while the effects are just as good as my Strymons but lack the curated user interface to be as easy to work with.
 
Eagle said:
Line 6 always drops everything as soon as the new product comes out . I for one don't want to try and get a replacement for that ridiculous joystick push turn encoder when they stop support 10 minutes after the next gen appears.
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They've never really supported a product in quite the same way that they have the Helix line either, so I wouldn't make any assumptions here.

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James Freeman said:
It is also interesting to see 'how' the updates stop.
For example, when a successor product is released, do they keep releasing a few last updates for the predecessor or immediately stop?
I assume every company will do things differently depending on how successful the previous product was.

I know Fractal has always released a few more updates for last gen along side with the new successor, then announced discontinuation of support.
It will be interesting to see how Line 6 does things, Helix being their first product with prolonged updates.
Click to expand...
Not to get semantic, but don't consider continued firmware updates to be the litmus test for "still supported". On the software side, all that is needed to be "still supported", imo, is making sure the editor can continue to work on modern operating systems. On the hardware it means "if it breaks, can/will they fix it?"
 
Eagle said:
Line 6 always drops everything as soon as the new product comes out . I for one don't want to try and get a replacement for that ridiculous joystick push turn encoder when they stop support 10 minutes after the next gen appears.
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This comment is so not based in reality. You are talking hardware here. Helix and various Helix family products have been out for ages and you can STILL buy an M5 brand new. They didn't stop production of M13 or POD HD500X until pretty recently. Pretty sure they will still fix the hardware on any of those.
 
Boudoir Guitar said:
This comment is so not based in reality. You are talking hardware here. Helix and various Helix family products have been out for ages and you can STILL buy an M5 brand new.
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Yeah. I know for a fact that L6 will service products even if they're legacy and/or out-of-warranty - it might not be free though.
 
Boudoir Guitar said:
This comment is so not based in reality. You are talking hardware here. Helix and various Helix family products have been out for ages and you can STILL buy an M5 brand new. They didn't stop production of M13 or POD HD500X until pretty recently. Pretty sure they will still fix the hardware on any of those.
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Sorry but as a repair tech I have lots of issues with line 6 as soon as they stop production.
 
dronerstone said:
100% agree, but sometimes there are other variables to factor in:

This afternoon, I wanna buy strings, a nice cable, and a tuner for one of my best friends who just started out. A buddy chipped in and bought a used amp (that we're paying together).

I initially planned to head a local store after I'm done with work, and pick things up personally, but now I'm contemplating just ordering online from Th*mann, even if it's not even in our country.

Here's why: brick'n'mortar instrument stores have died out during the last decade, and there's one "useful" store, but it's located in an industrial fringe district on the other end of this big city.

Meaning: 1 hour ride, probably 30 minutes inside the mall, then 1 hour back home. :(

Th*mann: a couple clicks and 1-2 days wait time.

Ugh...... I'm actually pretty torn.
Click to expand...
Brick and mortar stores died out because people just did a couple clicks.
 
paisleywookiee said:
Brick and mortar stores died out because people just did a couple clicks.
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...or because you can often get better information about products on the Internet than in stores. After reading a few reviews, I often know more about the products than the salesperson who is supposed to advise me.
 
TheTrueZoltan! said:
...or because you can often get better information about products on the Internet than in stores. After reading a few reviews, I often know more about the products than the salesperson who is supposed to advise me.
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Sure, I guess that’s possible. You can’t try anything though, unless you love shipping things back. You can’t bring your guitar and entire rig in and try something out. I’m not saying all brick and mortar stores are created equal, obviously.
 
Eagle said:
Sorry but as a repair tech I have lots of issues with line 6 as soon as they stop production.
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Sorry, but your OP still has no basis in reality: "Line 6 always drops everything as soon as soon as the new product comes out" is simply not true historically. They stop production when the thing stops selling in sufficient numbers to turn a profit. Or like when the 500 went to the 500x, a part becomes unavailable. Not because a new product comes out. I mean: https://line6.com/pocket-pod/
 
Boudoir Guitar said:
Sorry, but your OP still has no basis in reality: "Line 6 always drops everything as soon as soon as the new product comes out" is simply not true historically. They stop production when the thing stops selling in sufficient numbers to turn a profit. Or like when the 500 went to the 500x, a part becomes unavailable. Not because a new product comes out. I mean: https://line6.com/pocket-pod/
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1 guy = the world! Duh!
 
paisleywookiee said:
Brick and mortar stores died out because people just did a couple clicks.
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Probably one of the main reasons. When I buy a guitar, a pedal, or an amp, I actually prefer a real store where I can get my hands on the stuff, rather than ordering, returning, etc, with all the wait time involved.

Still, if I'm only buying a cable, strings, tuner, or whatever little stuff, I'd rather not do a 2hr commute... yikes!

I'm not living in the countryside, after all. Vienna is one of the EU's bigger cities and the capital of this country. Unfortunately, there's not a single useful instruments store downtown, because they all died out. There's an awesome little/scruffy used store that I do frequent, but for new stuff? Zilch.
 
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