Free updates - where does it stop?

EOengineer said:
Many of us here agree on the merits and value in the continual update model. However, it’s apparent not all businesses agree, as is evident with Boss/Roland and some others.
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What has the trajectory of Boss market share looked like? If anything, they are the evidence that "free updates" increase sales. Somebody that offloaded Helix in 2019 because it wasn't quite "there" has plenty of reason to buy one today and see if it is finally "there". Not so for GT1000
 
A couple of comments:

1. The cost of updates are baked into the price structure. They know what they're doing.
2. Moving to a paid update model would require a lot of additional cost and headache such as a licensing and verification methods, etc.... that can't be easily bypassed or hacked. It's a pain. It would also piss off customers accustomed to free updates.

It's probably simpler to keep it as is as long as they're making money.
 
JiveTurkey said:
Suicide Samurai GIF
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I was debating which game I wanted to re-play today, Ghost Of Tsushima it is!
 
When you're selling hardware that requires firmware in order to function, it only makes sense that you continue to develop FW for the life of a product. This is true whether or not you offer FW updates to previous customers. Bug fixes, enhanced performance, and new features all increase the marketability of a product. The cost associated with continued FW development is therefore (hopefully) absorbed by enhanced sales.

Having developed a new FW revision, it also makes sense to offer it at no cost to customers whose products have older revs, as long as you have provided an interface that is suitable for uploading FW.

OTOH, offering free FW updates after a product has been discontinued would represent a cost that cannot be recovered. I'm not aware of a manufacturer who does this.

So the answer to the question posed by the thread title is "at a product's production/sales EOL."
 
EOengineer said:
Perhaps there’s enough profit in the hardware sales to sustain a decade of free updates but I guess that surprises me?
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The reason Line 6, Fractal, Kemper et al make profit on hardware sales is precisely because they support it so well.

My guess is that their business model is the culmination of multiple lessons learned across the way. I was a bit dismayed when i read a couple people suggesting, on a different thread, that Line 6 should start selling amp packs for Helix, a-la Pod HD.
 
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jay mitchell said:
When you're selling hardware that requires firmware in order to function, it only makes sense that you continue to develop FW for the life of a product. This is true whether or not you offer FW updates to previous customers. Bug fixes, enhanced performance, and new features all increase the marketability of a product. The cost associated with continued FW development is therefore (hopefully) absorbed by enhanced sales.
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Tell that to developers of TVs, computer displays and smartphones. Many of these have bugs that are only fixed by a next iteration of the product and many of them tend to limit even the last year's models to an older version of the software where new features are only available on the next, otherwise almost identical model.

More niche products, which digital modelers are in the grand scale of things, often have better firmware support but only if their developers are really invested in their development. Fractal really changed the way these are sold and developed when before that pretty much every vendor was doing "brand new model every 2 years" type stuff. Now that model has become almost a defacto feature of digital modelers.

For me e.g Universal Audio products are dead because they refuse to implement anything users are asking. Strymon gets a pass from me simply because they get the major stuff right and any improvements are "convenience" and "nice to haves". Meanwhile the Yamaha THR100HD is an example of a good hardware product hampered by the lack of just a few firmware updates to fix its various problems.

It's clear people don't mind paying a little for things like IR packs so there is room for "amp packs" business models too considering most of them are just to fullfill the completionist desires or particular niches rather than adding truly missing features. Like I'm not going to care if there's no Mark VII model in a modeler if it has a Mark 2C+ or IV, but for some that might be enough to get them to buy "the Mark VII pack."

I am a bit worried about how far the current business model can go though. Fractal has become very expensive in the EU. The FM9 with Finnish VAT is 2395 euros. Helix Floor is 1590 €. If we can expect the next gen devices to be more expensive from every brand, I wonder how expensive they will be...
 
laxu said:
Tell that to developers of TVs, computer displays and smartphones.
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My TV and my phone have both updated their FW within the past six months. Both devices automatically check for updates on a recurring basis.

laxu said:
Many of these have bugs that are only fixed by a next iteration of the product
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I've seen accounts to that effect, but it has not been my experience.

laxu said:
More niche products, which digital modelers are in the grand scale of things, often have better firmware support but only if their developers are really invested in their development. Fractal really changed the way these are sold and developed when before that pretty much every vendor was doing "brand new model every 2 years" type stuff.
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Fractal was the first one-man show to make much of a dent in the modeler market. Their business model is necessarily different from those of companies that must sell tens of thousands of a product in order for it to be economically viable for them.

laxu said:
It's clear people don't mind paying a little for things like IR packs so there is room for "amp packs" business models too
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The relative lack of success by some of the better-known players in that market would tend to disprove that statement. There's a reason most of them have day jobs.

laxu said:
I am a bit worried about how far the current business model can go though. Fractal has become very expensive in the EU. The FM9 with Finnish VAT is 2395 euros. Helix Floor is 1590 €.
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There are occasional arguments being made that the modeler market is becoming commoditized. If that's true, eventually the market for more expensive modelers will dry up to some extent. I have no idea whether that will happen, nor am I particularly concerned about it.
 
laxu said:
Fractal has become very expensive in the EU.
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I still say the modelers with all the bells and whistles are an amazing bargain, when you consider, if you're say, a gigging player with a tight budget, you really don't need anything else in the way of amp & cab tones, and effects.

You can even get by without a 7-string or extra guitars for drop/raised tunings. I say when you factor in what these devices save you in terms of other gear that you don't have to buy, it's still a steal.
 
jay mitchell said:
Having developed a new FW revision, it also makes sense to offer it at no cost to customers whose products have older revs, as long as you have provided an interface that is suitable for uploading FW.
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What’s your opinion on this regarding plugin releases? IK Multimedia for instance is still charging for revisions at times.
 
TSJMajesty said:
I still say the modelers with all the bells and whistles are an amazing bargain, when you consider, if you're say, a gigging player with a tight budget, you really don't need anything else in the way of amp & cab tones, and effects.

You can even get by without a 7-string or extra guitars for drop/raised tunings. I say when you factor in what these devices save you in terms of other gear that you don't have to buy, it's still a steal.
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I don't disagree with this. But at the same time, when one climbs down from the land of bells and whistles to the work-a-day world of stuff like Stomp and FM3, it gets to be a lot harder to justify the added price of the bells and whistles stuff unless one is using all the bells and whistles (those mostly being related to I/O, # of blocks, and switches). That I can do 98% of what I wanna do with a sub $1k device makes it a lot harder for me to part ways with an extra $1200-$1750 to move up a level.
 
Free updates make perfect sense when two things are considered.

First, the Fractal , Kemper and Helix are fundamentally different products than a TV or cell phone. Despite technically being consumer products, they are in more ways like professional equipment, such as an MRI machine or Bloomberg terminal. However, unlike a doctor’s office or investment bank, musicians will never consistently make enough money to pay for a service plan for their gear.

Second, the actual people at FAS, Kemper and team Helix obviously love their jobs and take pride in their work. I think the power of the human element in many businesses is underrated. Every time there’s a free update we are connected to the people who actually care about and enjoy these products. Unfortunately these kinds of teams cannot last forever, and I’d imagine once the people are not there the product and updates start to whither.
 
laxu said:
I am a bit worried about how far the current business model can go though. Fractal has become very expensive in the EU. The FM9 with Finnish VAT is 2395 euros. Helix Floor is 1590 €. If we can expect the next gen devices to be more expensive from every brand, I wonder how expensive they will be...
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F.w.i.w .... and not debating about which is best etc..... here in Oz the Axe 3 MKII Turbo + FC12 + Exp Ped EV1 is $7174 .... no that's not a misprint.

The Helix Rack and Controller varies around $3600.

The Helix Full Floor is around $2800.

I'll leave it at that.

Ben
 
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Boudoir Guitar said:
I don't disagree with this. But at the same time, when one climbs down from the land of bells and whistles to the work-a-day world of stuff like Stomp and FM3, it gets to be a lot harder to justify the added price of the bells and whistles stuff unless one is using all the bells and whistles (those mostly being related to I/O, # of blocks, and switches). That I can do 98% of what I wanna do with a sub $1k device makes it a lot harder for me to part ways with an extra $1200-$1750 to move up a level.
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I'd say it's also harder if you start looking at e.g the Helix Floor vs FM3, with a price difference of 135 euros right now. You would really have to love the compact form factor and everything Fractal does to forego everything the Helix Floor offers in return for that small price difference.

And I'm saying this as someone who has sold the Helix Floor and QC and currently uses the Axe-Fx 3. But as much as I like Fractal, it's really hard to say "the FM9 is totally worth the 805 euros extra over the Helix Floor." That price difference would buy you a new guitar, a HX Stomp or various other things.

Now, this wasn't meant to become some pricing discussion. I wanted to point out that if the prices have to keep climbing up as living costs, shipping costs, component costs etc go up and next gen modelers become more expensive to make because people want fancy new features, means all the companies have to charge more. At what point does also the "free updates for 5-10 years" model become impossible, even if it drives sales and keeps the existing units relevant?

But are we also starting to get to a point where there's not a whole lot to want either? If Fractal stopped firmware updates today, I wouldn't be too sad about it because there's not anything particularly missing from the current units. Adding this and that amp or effect doesn't mean much and making them even better sounding somehow is not as big a deal either because it all sounds great already.

The biggest thing I want out of next gen modelers from any brand is better usability - closer to the experience I get twisting dedicated knobs on a pedalboard. So far only the QC has gotten close to this and only because they have the most modern onboard hardware.
 
My Axe III MKII Turbo cost me around £2600 door to door when I got it. That's basically the most expensive thing I've ever purchased in the world of guitar. Now when I write it out like that, it seems incredibly stupid that I'm not much more invested in the platform! I love it. It's a great bit of kit. But it hasn't killed my love of real amps and single pedals and all the rest of it. It totally killed my interest in software amp modellers and profiling/capturing tech though.
 
laxu said:
But are we also starting to get to a point where there's not a whole lot to want either? If Fractal stopped firmware updates today, I wouldn't be too sad about it because there's not anything particularly missing from the current units.
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I think for these comprehensive units there will always be the next new thing to add, though it makes sense that it would eventually slow down.

For example, Helix adding the Plumes wasn’t profound but also made sense since that pedal seems to be a modern classic in the way the OCD was 20 years ago.

I’m also hoping this generation’s Jimmy Page/Tom Morello/etc. does something cool with the Cloudburst or some other new sounding pedal, that we’ll then see added to our big modelers.
 
ragingplatypi said:
I think for these comprehensive units there will always be the next new thing to add, though it makes sense that it would eventually slow down.

For example, Helix adding the Plumes wasn’t profound but also made sense since that pedal seems to be a modern classic in the way the OCD was 20 years ago.

I’m also hoping this generation’s Jimmy Page/Tom Morello/etc. does something cool with the Cloudburst or some other new sounding pedal, that we’ll then see added to our big modelers.
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The Cloudburst's Ensemble mode is the only thing that e.g Fractal can't do with ease.

I have a Strymon Nightsky and pretty much everything on it is possible on the Fractal Reverb block, just a lot less intuitive to work with vs Strymon's curated interface.

There's always "amps/pedals of the month" type things that people ask to be added to their favorite modeler, but overall it's mostly fluff and there's already a model that could be dialed to sound pretty close if you took the time to do it.
 
I do genuinely think the Axe FX III is the best multi-effects unit on the market. I just wish it were easier. Like, I wish I could just open a menu and go "okay, dark sounding BBD .... no wait... bright sounding BBD..." - ie... a huge blocks effects library, where an end user doesn't have to C*ck around dialing anything in apart from feedback and mix.

I know... I know... I should just craft my own effects library. But it's boring. That's what pedals like the Cloudburst and Timeline and what not have going for them still... really easy to use and get good sounds out of.
 
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