FM3 as audio interface?

[aivoryuk]

Where do I start with this.
I have had the FM3 for 3 years this month and recording via USB has never worked correctly as in there is offset latency when recording.

I have a couple of other USB devices so last year I raised a support ticket with them with some offset latency numbers.
Antelope synergy mic - under 1ms
Native instruments Complete 4ms -
FM3 - 12ms

This was acknowledged by Support of being an issue but no date for fix

Over the last 12 months on the Fractal forum I have posted threads about it.
The last update was on the thread https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/latency-compensation-measurement.177851/page-4#post-2489736

It was a little disappointing to hear that apparently for most people it was "not a showstopper".
Fractal's own website claims that it has "impressive USB capabilities" - this simply is not true.
I'm more of a recording guitar player but don't need the processing of the axe3 (more interested in raw amp tones) so it would be lovely that company of Fractal's quality would fix this.

 

[aivoryuk]

For the stuff you do Jon, I’d totally recommend a dedicated high quality interface and possibly a patchbay to keep all your gear and load boxes hooked up to. The quality of your productions, and for the work you do, it’s well worth having a dedicated interface for it.

The thought of running my studio off a guitar modeller fills me with serious anxiety.

You shouldn't have to get an external device. Fractal's website claims impressive USB capabilities including reamping.
I have sub £300 devices that perform better than the FM3.

 

[GuitarJon]

Where do I start with this.
I have had the FM3 for 3 years this month and recording via USB has never worked correctly as in there is offset latency when recording.

I have a couple of other USB devices so last year I raised a support ticket with them with some offset latency numbers.
Antelope synergy mic - under 1ms
Native instruments Complete 4ms -
FM3 - 12ms

This was acknowledged by Support of being an issue but no date for fix

Over the last 12 months on the Fractal forum I have posted threads about it.
The last update was on the thread https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/latency-compensation-measurement.177851/page-4#post-2489736

It was a little disappointing to hear that apparently for most people it was "not a showstopper".
Fractal's own website claims that it has "impressive USB capabilities" - this simply is not true.
I'm more of a recording guitar player but don't need the processing of the axe3 (more interested in raw amp tones) so it would be lovely that company of Fractal's quality would fix this.

This is pure guesswork but I think it might be because of hardware limitations. If it were easily fixed with a software update I'm sure they would have taken care of it already. Just assumptions... Anyway, I still dig my Fractal devices a lot, it's just a bit of a nuisance.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

You shouldn't have to get an external device. Fractal's website claims impressive USB capabilities including reamping.
I have sub £300 devices that perform better than the FM3.

It’s not even so much about performance (which seemingly does have some issues that it shouldnt) as it is just having extra I/O and the flexibility to integrate different bits of gear with different connections, sample rates, etc without having to constantly adjust cables and routing in the device

 

[aivoryuk]

This is pure guesswork but I think it might be because of hardware limitations. If it were easily fixed with a software update I'm sure they would have taken care of it already. Just assumptions... Anyway, I still dig my Fractal devices a lot, it's just a bit of a nuisance.

My only thing is if it is a hardware limitation then Fractal can't claim on its website of its impressive USB capabilities.
Most devices don't need manual intervention when working with DAW's as the offset is low enough to be not be able to hear it.

 

[SeeD]

I sure hope that this will be fixed with a Fw/Usb update. As this seams to have been there all a long.
I had re-amping problems with my old Axe Fx II unit, as in I had to turn up the volume of my DI in my DAW if I wanted to re-amp and get the same volume into the Axe Fx II. It was a wierd one, and I did try to get an awnser to this, but got just..do this, and, try this.

 

[GuitarJon]

I sure hope that this will be fixed with a Fw/Usb update. As this seams to have been there all a long.
I had re-amping problems with my old Axe Fx II unit, as in I had to turn up the volume of my DI in my DAW if I wanted to re-amp and get the same volume into the Axe Fx II. It was a wierd one, and I did try to get an awnser to this, but got just..do this, and, try this.

That's odd. My DI levels have always been perfect. I wonder why you had that issue...

 

[Orvillain]

I sure hope that this will be fixed with a Fw/Usb update. As this seams to have been there all a long.
I had re-amping problems with my old Axe Fx II unit, as in I had to turn up the volume of my DI in my DAW if I wanted to re-amp and get the same volume into the Axe Fx II. It was a wierd one, and I did try to get an awnser to this, but got just..do this, and, try this.

So you got advice and potential solutions? What is the problem?

 

[Orvillain]

My only thing is if it is a hardware limitation then Fractal can't claim on its website of its impressive USB capabilities.
Most devices don't need manual intervention when working with DAW's as the offset is low enough to be not be able to hear it.

Having to enter a manual offset value in your DAW is a very common issue. Try integrating a ton of outboard preamps and compressors and things like that, and you'll suddenly find that you end up having to do it on a per-track basis when using those "Insert" plugins for example.

Yes, I installed all the latest stuff. I think the latency is less, but it's still there.

It won't reduce latency. But it should improve the accuracy of reporting latency to the DAW.

 

[GuitarJon]

It won't reduce latency. But it should improve the accuracy of reporting latency to the DAW.

For it to really make a difference the latency reporting should be 100% accurate which it isn't in my case. Otherwise we still have to enter an offset.

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

As much as we all love the Fractal stuff… let‘s just be honest… their devices are simply not very good as an audio interface. RTL sucks, and the USB audio offset issue would drive me nuts.

 

[SeeD]

So you got advice and potential solutions? What is the problem?

I think it was HW problem, as nothing worked, other then to raise my DI level eveytime. ( this is the thing I myself found out )
Just wierd that even with Axe Fx III and FM3 there are USB wierdness going on

 

[Orvillain]

For it to really make a difference the latency reporting should be 100% accurate which it isn't in my case. Otherwise we still have to enter an offset.

I doubt there is any device that is 100% accurate to be honest. The Axe FX III should be in the order of samples, not milliseconds. If you're not seeing that, then there is something else going on.

The latency reporting fix hasn't made it to the FM3 yet, iirc.

 

[SeeD]

That's odd. My DI levels have always been perfect. I wonder why you had that issue...

Yeah, and as it was my main recording interface, I felt I had to commit to a sound more when I was recording, as it was a pain in the ass to re-amp

 

[Orvillain]

I think it was HW problem, as nothing worked, other then to raise my DI level eveytime. ( this is the thing I myself found out )
Just wierd that even with Axe Fx III and FM3 there are USB wierdness going on

Yes, but please don't lump everything into "USB weirdness" because latency reporting and DI levels aren't the same thing, and would have very different causes.

Latency reporting is to do with the USB driver. DI levels being off could easily be a hardware problem, or even just user error.

 

[Orvillain]

On the broader topic of audio interfaces, I agree with @MirrorProfiles - a dedicated audio interface allows for a lot of flexibility.

I have my setup like this:
Presonus Quantum Thunderbolt 2 interface as my main interface. But I'll be swapping it out for an RME one next year I think.
Then I have an Antelope Audio Discrete 8 Pro SC, hooked up via ADAT and clocked via BNC word-clock cables to the Quantum. These two devices are super tight and in sync with each other.
Then I have the Axe FX III hooked up to the Quantum via SPDIF.

This allows me to keep everything in the digital domain, so no extra AD/DA conversions when using the Axe FX III. It also allows me to treat the Axe FX III as a reamping box, because I can route input 4 (which is setup as the digital input on the Axe III) straight to output 3 in a preset, and that lets me route signals from my computer to a real amplifier, very easily. I've got a dedicated reamping box too, but this allows me to reamp two signals at once if I wanted.

The really cool thing about it is, I can easily swap it out to the Helix if I wanted, without having to mess with anything else in my studio. Just two SPDIF cables that I move from one device to the other.

So I have my cab microphones plugged into the preamps on the Discrete 8, the SPDIF for modellers going to the Quantum, the line connections from my outboard synths going into the Discrete 8, my Neve DI box going to the Quantum, and a vocal mic going to the Quantum too. For the first time in my life, I'm able to just walk into my studio and make music, without constantly worrying about connecting up a load of stuff beforehand.

 

[SeeD]

Yes, but please don't lump everything into "USB weirdness" because latency reporting and DI levels aren't the same thing, and would have very different causes.

Latency reporting is to do with the USB driver. DI levels being off could easily be a hardware problem, or even just user error.

I think it was HW problem, as I said ( with the USB some how )

I hope that FAS can get a driver fix for the guys that have problems with latency reporting

 

[aivoryuk]

I doubt there is any device that is 100% accurate to be honest. The Axe FX III should be in the order of samples, not milliseconds. If you're not seeing that, then there is something else going on.

The latency reporting fix hasn't made it to the FM3 yet, iirc.

I agree with this, most devices will have some offset and it all depends what is acceptable.
The Antelope synergy offset was 5 samples and even with multi fx (the equivalent of reamping) it was 9 samples which is very low.
The FM3 when I first reported was 587 samples.

Edit- one thing I can't remember with the FM3 and the offset is whether or not it is consistent in the amount of offset you have to use. They may have been reports that the offset would depending on the preset you were using etc.

 

[Orvillain]

I agree with this, most devices will have some offset and it all depends what is acceptable.
The Antelope synergy offset was 5 samples and even with multi fx (the equivalent of reamping) it was 9 samples which is very low.
The FM3 when I first reported was 587 samples.

Edit- one thing I can't remember with the FM3 and the offset is whether or not it is consistent in the amount of offset you have to use. They may have been reports that the offset would depending on the preset you were using etc.

It'll change based on your sample-rate and chosen buffer size I think.

I'm just rechecking it here, fact checking myself more than anything. Will post again.

 

[Orvillain]

So... in Reaper, I start off with:

I add a track, stick a drum sample on it, and setup the routing so that it sends to the Axe FX via the USB 7/8 inputs. Then I setup this patch in Axe Edit:

And I setup another track to monitor out 1 in the DAW, and I record it. This is what I see:

For a buffer size of 64, and a sample-rate of 48000, there is a 30 sample offset here; which is approximately 0.625 milliseconds. IMHO, not something to worry about, but easily adjustable by doing a 30 sample offset in the preferences.

If I do not use the reported value from the driver.... I get this:

Which is about 285 samples; or approximately 5.9 milliseconds.


So clearly the driver is reporting something to the DAW, which is much better than it used to be.


If I enter 30 into the output manual offset section of Reaper:

Then it is dead on. But this value won't translate to my other audio interfaces, so I'll remove it.