E-drums: could they be a common thing for small bands gigs?

[Sascha Franck]

This is 100% false.

You don't seem to have much of an idea of live sound.

 

[Orvillain]

You don't seem to have much of an idea of live sound.

Yes I do.

Acting like microphones can't pickup the sympathetic resonances, and the modal shifting across a cymbal or drum skin, is just ... well frankly, it is just anti-reality.

You've only got to put some overheads up and play a rolling 16th note pattern on a ride cymbal, and then compare it to the same kind of signal that an e-kit or drum library puts out, to know that there's actually a huge difference between the two, and that this would be thoroughly observable in a live sound context.

I've spent 18 years working with e-kits, drum samples, and being involved in measuring, analysing, recording, editing, and producing products that revolve around exactly this kind of phenomenon. I 100% know what I am talking about, and there is a reason that BFD was so famed and appreciated for its "real" and "raw" character; versus some of the competition who do not have as strong a reputation for realism - again, just being frank about it. But that's the reality.

(BFD failing hard has nothing to do with its sound engine btw, and everything to do with 10+ years of piss poor middle-management!)

 

[Sascha Franck]

Yes I do.

Clearly not.

I've spent 18 years working with e-kits, drum samples, and being involved in measuring, analysing, recording, editing, and producing products that revolve around exactly this kind of phenomenon.

Completely irrelevant for live. Which my comment was about. But you seem to blissfully ignore that.

But let's just keep it at that. You're the big pumpkin and nobody else knows anything.
It's annoying, really.

 

[Orvillain]

Clearly not.

Wrong.

Completely irrelevant for live.

Wrong.

Which my comment was about. But you seem to blissfully ignore that.

Wrong.

 

[OneEng]

Serious question: how do you explain all the amazing-sounding shows so many of us have seen over the past few decades, with real amps, real drums, etc?

If you are in a venue large enough (or outdoors), then nearly any drummer and band can be made to sound great.

In smaller venues with smaller stages where the drums must be close to vocal mics, it will only sound good if the drummer keeps his volume under control, otherwise the cymbals and snare will drown out the vocals and the FOH will be a mess.

I have heard some fantastic performances, MOST of them were done with acoustic drums..... but of the really horrible performances I have seen (horrible due to a very bad mix) the mix was ruined by loud cymbals, snare, and sometimes tube amps.

You don't seem to have much of an idea of live sound.

None at all. Doesn't seem to have a clue what goes into making a good FOH mix.

While all these subtle sonic things are interesting, the idea that anyone could hear such things in a mix in a club is just silly IMO.

I will give it to @Orvillain, he is consistent as he also believes that he could hear the difference between a Kemper, Axe III Fx, and a real tube amp in a live setting because of subtle nuances.

My personal belief is that you need a good clean sound stage first without so much mic blead as to doom the mix. You also need good talent as no amount of gear is going to make a crappy musician suddenly sound good (especially the vocals).

Even a fantastically talented band will sound bad if the mix is crap though. I have seen this many times and it is heart wrenching since you can tell the musicians are very talented. Such a shame that their mix is such crap that the audience can't hear just how good they are.

 

[paisleywookiee]

If you are in a venue large enough (or outdoors), then nearly any drummer and band can be made to sound great.

In smaller venues with smaller stages where the drums must be close to vocal mics, it will only sound good if the drummer keeps his volume under control, otherwise the cymbals and snare will drown out the vocals and the FOH will be a mess.

I have heard some fantastic performances, MOST of them were done with acoustic drums..... but of the really horrible performances I have seen (horrible due to a very bad mix) the mix was ruined by loud cymbals, snare, and sometimes tube amps.

Man, I am lucky! so many good drummers I've had the privilege of seeing over the last 30+ years.

 

[Orvillain]

None at all. Doesn't seem to have a clue what goes into making a good FOH mix.

Not at golf clubs anyway.

While all these subtle sonic things are interesting, the idea that anyone could hear such things in a mix in a club is just silly IMO.

It is very music dependent. Go and watch Mogwai, Mono, or And So I Saw You From Afar, and try and pretend that sonic subtleties are not audible. If you're just bullshitting your way through Summer of 69, yeah sure... probably no one gives a shit.

I will give it to @Orvillain, he is consistent as he also believes that he could hear the difference between a Kemper, Axe III Fx, and a real tube amp in a live setting because of subtle nuances.

I have demonstrated I can hear differences between those pieces of equipment in a recorded mix. I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to diffrentiate betweem them in a live mix either.

My personal belief is that you need a good clean sound stage first without so much mic blead as to doom the mix. You also need good talent as no amount of gear is going to make a crappy musician suddenly sound good (especially the vocals).

My belief is you need to know the room and the music you're mixing, before you even pick up a mic or plug in a cable. Also, again the word is 'bleed' - basic English skills elude you, and you expect us to take you seriously?

Even a fantastically talented band will sound bad if the mix is crap though. I have seen this many times and it is heart wrenching since you can tell the musicians are very talented. Such a shame that their mix is such crap that the audience can't hear just how good they are.

Everyone has heard a great band have bad live sound. When my friend and I went to see Tool a few years ago in the Wembley O2 Arena, I had a fantastic time. He went two nights in a row, and the first night was seated far away from the stage, and very high up top. His sound was primarily coming from the corner fills in that part of the venue. He described the sound as an abortion. The worst he's ever heard, and it ruined the gig for him. The second night he was in a completely different spot, down on the floor, and it sounded fantastic.

An electronic drumkit would not have fixed his experience. An amp modeller would not have fixed his experience. A silent stage would not have fixed his experience.

What ruined his experience was precisely the FOH mix, his positioning in the venue, and the fact that (IMHO!!!) the venue is too big for a band like that. Buuuttt... they made a lot of money that tour, so as we've established in this thread, if you make money, then that fully establishes you as a reputable source on live sound engineering.

 

[deathbyguitar]

 

[Orvillain]

 

[OneEng]

Not at golf clubs anyway.

Not anywhere. You simply lack the basic knowledge to get good FOH sound.... and worse, you believe that you do.... and why? Because you worked on a piece of musical equipment

It is very music dependent. Go and watch Mogwai, Mono, or And So I Saw You From Afar, and try and pretend that sonic subtleties are not audible. If you're just bullshitting your way through Summer of 69, yeah sure... probably no one gives a shit.

There are way more bands out there playing "Summer of 69" every weekend than "And So I Say You From Afar". I suppose if you are that .0001% of bands that do, then yea, those subtleties are important.

I have demonstrated I can hear differences between those pieces of equipment in a recorded mix. I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to diffrentiate betweem them in a live mix either.

You have demonstrated nothing.... other than you can't spell and are a hypocrite.

What ruined his experience was precisely the FOH mix, his positioning in the venue, and the fact that (IMHO!!!) the venue is too big for a band like that.

I have seen a very large stadium covered with really good sound on many occasions. Tool needs to get a better sound company, or pay for better equipment. While there are certainly positions in a venue where sound is better than others, most well funded events manage to sound pretty consistent throughout the arena ..... surprisingly so IMO.

I have had instances like you mention though. It's not that it isn't possible to get good coverage, it is that sometimes the job gets botched IMO.

The difference in a smaller venue with a bad mix and out of control stage volume is that it pretty much sounds like crap to everyone everywhere in the audience.

 

[paisleywookiee]

 

[metropolis_4]

it will only sound good if the drummer keeps his volume under control, otherwise the cymbals and snare will drown out the vocals and the FOH will be a mess.

I have heard some fantastic performances, MOST of them were done with acoustic drums..... but of the really horrible performances I have seen (horrible due to a very bad mix) the mix was ruined by loud cymbals, snare, and sometimes tube amps.

In other words, bad musicians sound bad. This has nothing to do with equipment, this is about the musician playing it.

You didn’t respond to my answer to your last question

 

[Orvillain]

Not anywhere. You simply lack the basic knowledge to get good FOH sound.... and worse, you believe that you do.... and why? Because you worked on a piece of musical equipment

There are way more bands out there playing "Summer of 69" every weekend than "And So I Say You From Afar". I suppose if you are that .0001% of bands that do, then yea, those subtleties are important.

You have demonstrated nothing.... other than you can't spell and are a hypocrite.

I have seen a very large stadium covered with really good sound on many occasions. Tool needs to get a better sound company, or pay for better equipment. While there are certainly positions in a venue where sound is better than others, most well funded events manage to sound pretty consistent throughout the arena ..... surprisingly so IMO.

I have had instances like you mention though. It's not that it isn't possible to get good coverage, it is that sometimes the job gets botched IMO.

The difference in a smaller venue with a bad mix and out of control stage volume is that it pretty much sounds like crap to everyone everywhere in the audience.

End your terrible machinations, before your soul is lost. The Lord doesn't want this for you.

 

[Orvillain]

You didn’t respond to my answer to your last question

He never does. My comment on page 1 has still gone ignored. He's a troll. He's wasting his life trolling on forums instead of doing something that will appease the voices.

 

[paisleywookiee]

This thread has run it's course.

 

[DrewJD82]

Not at golf clubs anyway.


It is very music dependent. Go and watch Mogwai, Mono, or And So I Saw You From Afar, and try and pretend that sonic subtleties are not audible. If you're just bullshitting your way through Summer of 69, yeah sure... probably no one gives a shit.


I have demonstrated I can hear differences between those pieces of equipment in a recorded mix. I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to diffrentiate betweem them in a live mix either.


My belief is you need to know the room and the music you're mixing, before you even pick up a mic or plug in a cable. Also, again the word is 'bleed' - basic English skills elude you, and you expect us to take you seriously?


Everyone has heard a great band have bad live sound. When my friend and I went to see Tool a few years ago in the Wembley O2 Arena, I had a fantastic time. He went two nights in a row, and the first night was seated far away from the stage, and very high up top. His sound was primarily coming from the corner fills in that part of the venue. He described the sound as an abortion. The worst he's ever heard, and it ruined the gig for him. The second night he was in a completely different spot, down on the floor, and it sounded fantastic.

An electronic drumkit would not have fixed his experience. An amp modeller would not have fixed his experience. A silent stage would not have fixed his experience.

What ruined his experience was precisely the FOH mix, his positioning in the venue, and the fact that (IMHO!!!) the venue is too big for a band like that. Buuuttt... they made a lot of money that tour, so as we've established in this thread, if you make money, then that fully establishes you as a reputable source on live sound engineering.

Oh dude, look at reviews of the most recent Metallica tour and for the same show you’ll gear every review critique/compliment ever known to man. The show I was at was perfect where I was sitting, my buddy up in the stands? Hated it.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to diffrentiate betweem them in a live mix either.

This should theoretically disqualify you from an informed discussion. Practically, you will go on, though.

 

[DrewJD82]

This should theoretically disqualify you from an informed discussion. Practically, you will go on, though.

You guys never state WHY someone should be disqualified from the discussion, why would that be in this case?

IMO- if you know how to listen for details you’re going to hear the shit you don’t want in a mix whether it’s live or in a studio, the only difference being you have more choices to ignore the shit you don’t want to hear in a live setting due to plenty of other distractions/noises occurring, but that doesn’t negate the person listening for them from hearing them.

 

[Sascha Franck]

You guys never state WHY someone should be disqualified from the discussion, why would that be in this case?

Because claiming that all these little nuances you can hear on recordings would also be relevant (if even detectable) in a live context is just bogus in 95% of all possible cases. Sure, in case you have an intimate jazz band setting, they will matter. And possibly as well in case you have a big ass show (not too likely, though, evern in case of such shows you can call yourself lucky if you even hear some snare ghostnotes or hats properly - and yes, I've been to quite some during the last years).
Heck, most mixers are happy if they manage to dial most of that delicate stuff out, simply because in case you can't treat it in a very controlled fashion (such as on a studio production), you rather get rid of it. The prime example possibly being gated toms (or rather pretty much gated everything but the cymbals), a stable of most FOH folks.

Fwiw, no, this is not in favour of e-kits at all (as said, I vastly prefer real kits for any gig that is supposed to have real drum sounds), but the reason e-kits don't work live hasn't got much (if anything) to do with those minutiae getting lost.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Do you guys want me to grab the rulers? Or do you already have your own?