Dimehead NAM Player

[Sedaxel]

I'm a simple man, I see a knob - I turn it =)
I see it as a gain control, and not an equation I need to balance.

Perfectly fine. Nothing against those of you who don't care so much about accuracy.

I don't think any of us see it as any balance equation either.

We just ask for a number that's very easy to provide by manufacturers, trying to ensure that the currently most accurate capturing software on earth keeps on being so when We use it, by avoiding so simple gain inaccuracies.

If We just wanted to explore tones that are not so accurate to the real amp, then We feel that NAM loses its main purpose, even when sounding great. Speaking just for myself, despite using "We" for the sake of emphasis.

 

[DLC86]

Is this definitely correct? 4dBu would be very easy to clip, humbuckers and 9V pedals would need quite a lot more headroom.

To match your Audient’s sound you’d need to remove 8dB or so (rather than boosting).

Even still, if it is 4dBu then it at least removes some guess work and allows users to achieve consistent sounds on whatever rig they are using. I can imagine a lot of guys will want to use their studio sound on the road.

I have a feeling they just shared the nominal level, +4dBu is that of line connections but those usually clip around +20 dBu... anyway, should be pretty easy to find out with a multimeter for those that have the pedal

 

[2dor]

I have a feeling they just shared the nominal level, +4dBu is that of line connections but those usually clip around +20 dBu... anyway, should be pretty easy to find out with a multimeter for those that have the pedal

I don't think the player displays the Input dBFS inside...I could be wrong though but don't recall seeing any input metering in any vids I watched

 

[northern_fox]

I have a feeling they just shared the nominal level, +4dBu is that of line connections but those usually clip around +20 dBu... anyway, should be pretty easy to find out with a multimeter for those that have the pedal

You can measure this with a multimeter? Am I missing something? If I have a known signal going in (say sine a wave @ 1V like the 12.2 dbu I do for captures), all I can do is measure the output of the device, but that doesn't tell me what the input level is since there's an output conversion and/or internal changes as well.

 

[northern_fox]

From dimehead:

' The input is 3.3Vpp, i.e. 4dBu. This was chosen to have as little noise as possible and is normally sufficient for all pickups and effects. 2.4 gain is exactly 8dB attenuation. '

 

[DLC86]

You can measure this with a multimeter? Am I missing something? If I have a known signal going in (say sine a wave @ 1V like the 12.2 dbu I do for captures), all I can do is measure the output of the device, but that doesn't tell me what the input level is since there's an output conversion and/or internal changes as well.

If you have a known signal and a way to alter it just look at which level the input starts clipping... If the pedal shows it somehow

 

[MirrorProfiles]

From dimehead:

' The input is 3.3Vpp, i.e. 4dBu. This was chosen to have as little noise as possible and is normally sufficient for all pickups and effects. 2.4 gain is exactly 8dB attenuation. '

Yeah, 3.3Vpp is 3.56dBu, so close enough to 4dBu. I’m not sure what the 2.4 gain refers to, but I guess there’s some attenuation before the converters? is that like an attenuation pot where 10=4dBu and reducing it lowers the level (increases headroom)?

 

[Orvillain]

<laughs in valve amp>

 

[northern_fox]

Yeah, 3.3Vpp is 3.56dBu, so close enough to 4dBu. I’m not sure what the 2.4 gain refers to, but I guess there’s some attenuation before the converters? is that like an attenuation pot where 10=4dBu and reducing it lowers the level (increases headroom)?

It's the setting on the 'gain' parameter in the unit - not related to the converters, just the capture input

 

[MirrorProfiles]

It's the setting on the 'gain' parameter in the unit - not related to the converters, just the capture input

Ah fair. So the equivalent of gain in the plugin I guess?

Is it possible to lower the input anywhere on the pedal pre-A/D? Or is the unit always working with a clipped signal?

The Kemper has a (default) level of about 5dBu and DI’s get totally mangled unless you lower it. I believe they changed the default setting to something with more headroom and people complained so they changed it back….

I don’t mind a bit of clipping on a DI, it’s not the end of the world. But 4dBu would be lower than I’m comfortable with on any modeller or DI recording device. I don’t see any reason to clip a signal that much at the beginning of the chain. Lowering that clipped signal afterwards ain’t going to bring those peaks back

15dBu or more=perfect
12dBu=might occasionally clip, but fine
10dBu=can live with it but it’s clipping a bit more than I’d prefer
8dBu=every palm mute is clipping. Could maybe JUST tolerate it but not as a first choice
5dBu=my DI is now a sausage

 

[pipelineaudio]

15dBu or more=perfect
12dBu=might occasionally clip, but fine
10dBu=can live with it but it’s clipping a bit more than I’d prefer
8dBu=every palm mute is clipping. Could maybe JUST tolerate it but not as a first choice
5dBu=my DI is now a sausage

It was real fun trying to explain this to Focusrite back in the day

 

[northern_fox]

Is it possible to lower the input anywhere on the pedal pre-A/D? Or is the unit always working with a clipped signal?

Nope - it's pre-set. But I'm not sure what you mean by always clipping? I've just done a test where I record a di via direct box and also through the player itself with nothing engaged - hard strumming and resonant palm mutes, and the resulting DI signals null perfectly. I actually had to double check and make sure I wasn't recording the same input on both channels haha. Lundgren black heaven - more of a medium output pickup. I don't have anything hotter to test with right now as my active preamps actually clip themselves

 

[Dom Mcsweeney]

Tested it with my 7 string in drop A - intentionally stupidly aggro heavy chugs - blank preset.
Recording the output of the pedal to my audio interface, I don't get any clipping unless the input gain on the pedal is turned up to max, and even then it's only very minimal clipping.
No problems here.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Tested it with my 7 string in drop A - intentionally stupidly aggro heavy chugs - blank preset.
Recording the output of the pedal to my audio interface, I don't get any clipping unless the input gain on the pedal is turned up to max, and even then it's only very minimal clipping.
No problems here.
View attachment 28949

The loudest peaks of this DI are all at the exact same level, so definitely clipping the A/D. Sosig.

Nope - it's pre-set. But I'm not sure what you mean by always clipping?

example above kind of shows - the peaks are getting taken off the DI before the processing has a chance to do anything. Ideally the signal that is processed is as close to possible as what left the guitar, rather than one that has had the transients cut off from the converters being overloaded.

Hard to verify whether that DI has 4dBu of headroom or more by looking at a waveform though, all that it is certain is the headroom of the inputs is lower than the output of the pickups.

 

[northern_fox]

By the look of the meter I'm nearly hitting the top with my medium output pickups. Here's a comparison of direct DI on top and via player on bottom - it's not a *zero* null but it's almost imperceptible (probably just due to the different ADA paths). I don't have the energy to try again with a slight boost to put it in hot range. I don't have the energy for a pickup swap right now to test something really hot like the miracle man though.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I have a feeling they just shared the nominal level, +4dBu is that of line connections but those usually clip around +20 dBu... anyway, should be pretty easy to find out with a multimeter for those that have the pedal

Yeah, usually it’s written like 4dBu with 16dBFS of headroom (AKA 20dBu of headroom total) on converters. Not sure that’s the case here or not. Ideally the unit would have some kind of clipping light or dBFS metering on the screen (or audio interface features).

By the look of the meter I'm nearly hitting the top with my medium output pickups. Here's a comparison of direct DI on top and via player on bottom - it's not a *zero* null but it's almost imperceptible (probably just due to the different ADA paths). I don't have the energy to try again with a slight boost to put it in hot range. I don't have the energy for a pickup swap right now to test something really hot like the miracle man though.

View attachment 28952

yeah this one doesn’t look to be clipping, I guess Dom’s pickups are a good bit louder. I suppose (if you can be bothered) you could run a sine wave into the pedal and note when the signal clips, and work out headroom that way.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I've just done a test where I record a di via direct box and also through the player itself with nothing engaged - hard strumming and resonant palm mutes, and the resulting DI signals null perfectly.

That's almost like defying physics.
Signals nulling perfectly are bit for bit identical. Hard to imagine when one was running through an ADDA chain and at least some kind of op-amp.

 

[northern_fox]

These are the two signals overlayed - I found one clipped peak on the largest spike but the rest are essentially identical:

 

[MirrorProfiles]

These are the two signals overlayed - I found one clipped peak on the largest spike but the rest are essentially identical:

View attachment 28953

View attachment 28954

if you know the dBFS value of that clipped sample you can work out the headroom of the pedal (and if it is indeed 4dBu, or something else).

Would probably be useful to know the scaling of the gain knob too, if it isn’t in dB steps then you’d need to work out a which input level correlates to which knob position (like how Mercuriall plugins do it).

 

[northern_fox]

1000 hz sine wav, blue is pedal, yellow is loopback, -9.71 dbFS (according to rew which is generating the signal). It's measuring exactly 1 volt at the tip into pedal. Putting it up a hair a above this will start flattening the peaks (which is exactly where it hits the top of the meter on the pedal). Internal gain is at 5 but there's no nam file loaded