Design Flaws, and why guitarists generally fear change

[JasonE]

With all this talk of Les Pauls being so crappy for tuning and easily prone to breakage you have to wonder why so many players have toured with them year after year after year (decade after decade?) all over the world.

Keep a close eye on your LP and you'll never have to worry about breaking a headstock. Tons of options for easily improving tuning.
Amazing how so many LP threads end up focusing on broken headstocks when it's such a rare occurrence - unless you're a dumbass and don't know how to take care of your stuff.

Got my first black with gold hardware LP custom in 75-76. Probably owned a half dozen of them since - each for long stretches. Never broke a headstock and never suffered tuning issues for for any longer than it takes to add a little graphite to the nut slot.

I have owned a number of Les Paul guitars over the years and also not had a headstock break and no real tuning issues. I also use graphite in the nut slots. That is the first thing I do to a new guitar that has a bone nut on it. I still have 2 Les Paul guitars in the stable today, along with an SG, 335 and 339. They are all pretty much the same headstock and nut...

I love them both to death but both my s2 vela and my CE24 have worse tuning stability than any Gibson I've ever owned

I own more than my fair share of PRS guitars and have worked on tons of them. Tuning issues with those level of guitars can be fixed, guaranteed.

 

[Achilles]

Just because something is widely used doesn't mean it's perfect and can't be improved. Leaving emotions out of it, Gibson headstock is objectively bad design.

Let's put it into perspective. The design is from 1952. It wasn't even a very big seller until Paul Butterfield and the English blues guys started using them in the 60s. By the end of the 60s guys like Kossoff, Page, Beck, Clapton, et. al. made it an icon from that point on.

How many times through the years has Gibson messed with the basic design recipe only to find out people only want the same one as their heroes? I think I vaguely remember them even using a volute for a while on the 'Elegant' model but that also fell out of favor.

Bad design, sure if looked at while wearing an Engineer's cap. From the overwhelmingly vast majority of the market's perspective?
They still just want this - the original 70 year old version. I'd say that makes it an extremely successful design - the occasional break be damned.

EDIT: Found one of their attempts at improving the design. Ya see these every day.......

 

[spawnofthesith]

For some reason I have a feeling if Gibson came out tomorrow and "fixed" all their "bad designs" @the-trooper and other dissenters still would not be lining up to buy them all of the sudden

 

[the-trooper]

Let's put it into perspective. The design is from 1952. It wasn't even a very big seller until Paul Butterfield and the English blues guys started using them in the 60s. By the end of the 60s guys like Kossoff, Page, Beck, Clapton, et. al. made it an icon from that point on.

Completely irrelevant for this thread.

Bad design, sure if looked at while wearing an Engineer's cap.

The only thing relevant for this thread.

For some reason I have a feeling if Gibson came out tomorrow and "fixed" all their "bad designs" @the-trooper and other dissenters still would not be lining up to buy them all of the sudden

That is correct.

 

[spawnofthesith]

A gibson with a straight headstock would be

hard pass

 

[Achilles]

Completely irrelevant for this thread.

True. Although last I checked there weren't any hard and fast rules about completely staying on topic as threads go past the first page.

 

[Bruce]

The Gibson Les Paul is a model T. We’ve gotten bucket seats and power steering since then, yet folks insist on hand cranking that engine and calling it awesome.

 

[TubeStack]

Gibson is a string of design flaws, wrapped up in tradition because their customers fear change. They could easily strengthen the headstock with a volute, but choose not to do that either.

I don’t think the volute does much. My dad’s 74 SG Special has one and it still broke, happened in the case when I was a kid.

 

[Achilles]

I don’t think the volute does much. My dad’s 74 SG Special has one and it still broke, happened in the case when I was a kid.

Another funny aspect of this is does every other player in the world who doesn't play a Gibson not really give a shit if their axe takes a tumble on its neck? Should only Les Paul owners be worried and handle their guitars with kid gloves?

Let's take my Les Paul and your JEM777 and drop each on it's neck a couple of times to see which is a better design!

 

[Eagle]

With all this talk of Les Pauls being so crappy for tuning and easily prone to breakage you have to wonder why so many players have toured with them year after year after year (decade after decade?) all over the world.

Keep a close eye on your LP and you'll never have to worry about breaking a headstock. Tons of options for easily improving tuning.
Amazing how so many LP threads end up focusing on broken headstocks when it's such a rare occurrence - unless you're a dumbass and don't know how to take care of your stuff.

Got my first black with gold hardware LP custom in 75-76. Probably owned a half dozen of them since - each for long stretches. Never broke a headstock and never suffered tuning issues for for any longer than it takes to add a little graphite to the nut slot.

Well this is not based on reality. As a repair technician I assure you that Les Paul head breaks are VERY common and you don’t need to hit them at all hard . The design is totally at fault.

If you knock the guitar on the head or it falls over 9 times out of 10 the head will go.

 

[Eagle]

Another funny aspect of this is does every other player in the world who doesn't play a Gibson not really give a shit if their axe takes a tumble on its neck? Should only Les Paul owners be worried and handle their guitars with kid gloves?

Let's take my Les Paul and your JEM777 and drop each on it's neck a couple of times to see which is a better design!

The jem is 10 times better.

 

[Eagle]

I love them both to death but both my s2 vela and my CE24 have worse tuning stability than any Gibson I've ever owned

This is a setup issue because I can make those stay in tune perfectly.

 

[Eagle]

I don’t think the volute does much. My dad’s 74 SG Special has one and it still broke, happened in the case when I was a kid.

The volute is twice as strong look at the picture I posted.

 

[Achilles]

Les Paul head breaks are VERY common and you don’t need to hit them at all hard .

I have a BSME. I understand the mechanics involved. Also spent enough time with marketing and sales departments to see the balances. Any 70 year old design that continues to be in high demand and year after year ranks as one of the top models sold across the globe = successful design.

If it was that bad the guitars would have stopped selling at some point along those 7 decades until changes were made. I can only speak for myself - I got almost a half century with one Les Paul or another. A whole bunch of those years were spent with the guitar bouncing around in a car/van between gigs/practices/home. I never broke one. The Knaggs I just bought has the exact same headstock design.

 

[PLX]

Dean Guitars: "Hold my beer"

 

[DrewJD82]

Well this is not based on reality. As a repair technician I assure you that Les Paul head breaks are VERY common and you don’t need to hit them at all hard . The design is totally at fault.View attachment 15313
If you knock the guitar on the head or it falls over 9 times out of 10 the head will go.

I wish I never saw this.

 

[Achilles]

Dean Guitars: "Hold my beer"

*cough*

 

[Eagle]

I have a BSME. I understand the mechanics involved. Also spent enough time with marketing and sales departments to see the balances. Any 70 year old design that continues to be in high demand and year after year ranks as one of the top models sold across the globe = successful design.

If it was that bad the guitars would have stopped selling at some point along those 7 decades until changes were made. I can only speak for myself - I got almost a half century with one Les Paul or another. A whole bunch of those years were spent with the guitar bouncing around in a car/van between gigs/practices/home. I never broke one. The Knaggs I just bought has the exact same headstock joint design.

No it doesn’t, the angle is less and the cut out is smaller. Just because something sells is nothing to do with good design. There are obvious flaws that have not been addressed because people want them to look like old ones.

 

[Eagle]

*cough*

You don’t bend strings on this so it is a dumb comparison.

 

[the-trooper]

If it was that bad the guitars would have stopped selling at some point along those 7 decades until changes were made.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that guitarists are idiots.