Design Flaws, and why guitarists generally fear change

[Bruce]

Yeah I don't think we're disagreeing. I just think maybe you dig the romantic aspect of the old stuff more than I do, and that's fine. Nothing wrong with that.

Maybe I do. I had an 83 z28, car handled like a brick thrown down the side of a mountain. Wish I still had it.

I also have 9 Gibsons I literally never play. This is probably a personality flaw but I cant help being me.

 

[metropolis_4]

Now look at a Les Paul Custom. Clunky heel joint gives you poor upper access, needless radical headstock angle leads to breaking if you look at it too long, heavy as all hell etc. But all our heroes of yesteryear played one so it must be the best.

You can have cool or you can have practical. Those two things are usually not the same.

This is the thing that bothers me, there seems to be this assumption some make that if you're playing a Gibson it's because you fear change and just want to use what all your heroes of yesteryear used.

I know there are guitarists out there like that, but why does that get blanket applied to everyone out there playing a Gibson?


If a Gibson is doing everything I need a guitar to do and I have no issues with it why should I spend money to switch to something new/modern?

Most of the modern/new takes on the designs fix things I don't have a problem with and add things I don't care about.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I know there are guitarists out there like that, but why does that get blanket applied to everyone out there playing a Gibson?

Because it doesn't?

 

[metropolis_4]

Because it doesn't?

Ahem...

Gibson is a string of design flaws, wrapped up in tradition because their customers fear change.

 

[DrewJD82]

Kinda walked right into that one, @paisleywookiee!

 

[paisleywookiee]

Well, not ALL their customers! But enough of them fear change that it affects the company.

 

[DrewJD82]

I wouldn’t be able to tolerate a guitar with continuous tuning issues, that’d drive me up the wall and I’d eventually get rid of it.My buddy has an EC-1000 and that thing can take a good beating without going out of tune, but I got him to start using Music Nomad’s Tune-It (basically nut sauce) on it even though it’s a fixed bridge.

I’ve got my own idiosyncrasies with some things, namely with Strats, if it’s not a vintage spec Strat I really don’t care about them. Two point trem? NEXT! Standard tuners? NEXT! Staggered tuning machines? NEXT! I know it comes from my Gilmour/EJ fanboyism and there’s nothing ‘wrong’ with the updates they’ve made to them, but for me, they were perfect in the 50’s and don’t need changing.

Everything else? IDGAF. I mean, I play an Evertune guitar into a modeler, that stuff is the antithesis to 3/4’s of TGP.

 

[Stone]

My EC-1000 won't stay in tune for even a single song.

Tuning Issues are mostly always due to the Nut have you tried lubing the nut, i do this to all my guitars after every string change, maybe it may help
if not consider re cutting the nut or replacing it altogether with a TUSQ ?

 

[bigcupholder]

I've never had any problems with tuning stability on my ESPs. I had tons of issues with both Gibsons I had. I think the extreme tilt of the Gibson headstock is just as big of a factor as the string pull direction.

All these design flaws (unnecessarily high tilt angle, non-straight string pull) add up to requiring a perfectly cut nut. The ESP headstock solves one, so it doesn't require as perfect of a nut as the Gibson, but it's still not ideal.

Take it to a tech to have the nut filed

 

[Bruce]

This is the thing that bothers me, there seems to be this assumption some make that if you're playing a Gibson it's because you fear change and just want to use what all your heroes of yesteryear used.

I know there are guitarists out there like that, but why does that get blanket applied to everyone out there playing a Gibson?


If a Gibson is doing everything I need a guitar to do and I have no issues with it why should I spend money to switch to something new/modern?

Most of the modern/new takes on the designs fix things I don't have a problem with and add things I don't care about.

Let’s once again apply an analogy to the situation: cars.

You have your Trusty 57 Bel Aire, and I have my 2023 Hyundai. The 57 does everything you need it to do. You get in it, it starts up and you get down the road and you’re happy. This is your perspective and no arguing really the only perspective that matters. Your car, you’re the one who has to like it.

Now my perspective sees you with the hood up every other day. Just the other day, it was 20 degrees out and you were changing points in your ignition and trying to diagnose a float problem in your carb. You’re blowing smoke that is killing every mosquito in the neighborhood. While all this is going on, I remote start my car so it heats up the the perfect cabin temperature and I beam my navigation directions so they’re on screen waiting for me when I get in. 10 minutes later, I nod at you, you nod back and I drive away.

There’s nothing wrong with your car per se, but us Hyundai owners talk. We dont understand why you are putting up with the shortcomings you are putting up with in the car. It doesn’t make any logical sense and as humans, we like to try and explain things.

Fear change? Because it looks cool? You can come up with a million reasons. The only thing that matters is YOU are happy with it, no one else. I have a closet full of leather jackets that dont keep me warm. I’m sure the triple down crowd are wondering why I wear them and their criticisms would not be wrong.

Sometimes, “because I just feel like it” has to be good enough. I have 9 les Pauls sitting in my closet that haven’t seen daylight in years. Why are they there? Probably makes no sense to most people and if I really think about it, they serve no purpose other than I have them, I want them and they’re staying, period.

 

[Bruce]

Well, not ALL their customers! But enough of them fear change that it affects the company.

When THIS is change you better believe I’m TERRIFIED of it

 

[metropolis_4]

Let’s once again apply an analogy to the situation: cars.

You have your Trusty 57 Bel Aire, and I have my 2023 Hyundai. The 57 does everything you need it to do. You get in it, it starts up and you get down the road and you’re happy. This is your perspective and no arguing really the only perspective that matters. Your car, you’re the one who has to like it.

Now my perspective sees you with the hood up every other day. Just the other day, it was 20 degrees out and you were changing points in your ignition and trying to diagnose a float problem in your carb. You’re blowing smoke that is killing every mosquito in the neighborhood. While all this is going on, I remote start my car so it heats up the the perfect cabin temperature and I beam my navigation directions so they’re on screen waiting for me when I get in. 10 minutes later, I nod at you, you nod back and I drive away.

That analogy doesn't fit. If my Les Paul was giving me half as much trouble as your hypothetical 57 Bel Air it would be gone in a second and something else would take it's place.

But it doesn't give me any problems at all.

In all 192 shows I played with it last year I never once had a situation where something about it was bothering me or not working the way I wanted it to. I never once had any frustration with it, and never once thought I wish I had something else. It just worked.

I don't find myself feeling a need for anything on it to be changed, or fixed, or updated, or improved. If I did, I would get rid of it and get something that worked better for me.

It has nothing to do with it being cool, or vintage, or traditional. It has nothing to do with fearing change, it has nothing to do with what any other guitarist besides me has ever used. It's a tool I have, and it works.

So why should I give up a tool that does everything I need just because it happens to be traditional and there are other modern alternatives available?

I can think of a huge list of reasons to trade a 57 Bel Air for a 2023 Hyundai, because there are a ton of practical considerations there. But I can't think of a single reason to trade my Gibson for anything else.

 

[paisleywookiee]

That analogy doesn't fit. If my Les Paul was giving me half as much trouble as your hypothetical 57 Bel Air it would be gone in a second and something else would take it's place.

But it doesn't give me any problems at all.

In all 192 shows I played with it last year I never once had a situation where something about it was bothering me or not working the way I wanted it to. I never once had any frustration with it, and never once thought I wish I had something else. It just worked.

I don't find myself feeling a need for anything on it to be changed, or fixed, or updated, or improved. If I did, I would get rid of it and get something that worked better for me.

It has nothing to do with it being cool, or vintage, or traditional. It has nothing to do with fearing change, it has nothing to do with what any other guitarist besides me has ever used. It's a tool I have, and it works.

So why should I give up a tool that does everything I need just because it happens to be traditional and there are other modern alternatives available?

I can think of a huge list of reasons to trade a 57 Bel Air for a 2023 Hyundai, because there are a ton of practical considerations there. But I can't think of a single reason to trade my Gibson for anything else.

Surely you’re familiar with many, many others who’ve had tuning issues, headstock breaks, etc though, right? It’s wonderful your Gibson is great, but there’s a considerable amount of people that all share these issues.

 

[metropolis_4]

Surely you’re familiar with many, many others who’ve had tuning issues, headstock breaks, etc though, right? It’s wonderful your Gibson is great, but there’s a considerable amount of people that all share these issues.

Sure, and there’s a considerable amount of people who have none of those issues.

The only point I’m trying to make in all of this is that the idea that the only reason people use Gibson guitars is because they’re traditionalists who are stuck in the past and afraid of change is bull***t

 

[Orvillain]

My Orville does slip a fair amount. I put some locking tuners on it, and it is a bit better. My EC1000 doesn't change tuning at all, on account of the Evertune bridge!!

My strat slips a lot too, even though I've locked the bridge down.

This is just what guitars do IMHO.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Sure, and there’s a considerable amount of people who have none of those issues.

The only point I’m trying to make in all of this is that the idea that the only reason people use Gibson guitars is because they’re traditionalists who are stuck in the past and afraid of change is bull***t

Then why not make improvements that are now easily done? I’m just sayin’, maybe YOU don’t like Gibson because of the adherence to tradition, but I think they’re (Gibson) are afraid to alienate people (again) by modernizing stuff.

 

[metropolis_4]

Then why not make improvements that are now easily done? I’m just sayin’, maybe YOU don’t like Gibson because of the adherence to tradition, but I think they’re (Gibson) are afraid to alienate people (again) by modernizing stuff.

I don’t know, but I’d be all for it.

I think they need to find a way to do what Fender did and have separate “traditional” and “modern” lines. Like the Fender American Vintage and American Ultra.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I don’t know, but I’d be all for it.

I think they need to find a way to do what Fender did and have separate “traditional” and “modern” lines. Like the Fender American Vintage and American Ultra.

I agree. Because their modern stuff isn’t that modern.

 

[Fireproof]

Then why not make improvements that are now easily done? I’m just sayin’, maybe YOU don’t like Gibson because of the adherence to tradition, but I think they’re (Gibson) are afraid to alienate people (again) by modernizing stuff.

Enter the Gibson Les Paul Axcess… (not my pic or guitar)

- headstock volute to prevent breaks
- belly cut for comfort
- curved / sculpted neck/heel joint for “heel-less feel”
- modern neck profile
- floyd rose
- etc.

They also have the Les Paul Modern series that updates a lot of elements.

 

[paisleywookiee]

View attachment 1037

Enter the Gibson Les Paul Axcess… (not my pic or guitar)

- headstock volute to prevent breaks
- belly cut for comfort
- curved / sculpted neck/heel joint for “heel-less feel”
- modern neck profile
- floyd rose
- etc.

They also have the Les Paul Modern series that updates a lot of elements.

Yeah I love those. Just wish they did one without a floyd. The new Modern series is cool, but the only thing modern about it is the neck shape and heel. The headstock still sucks (IMO).

I don't think Gibson really can ever get away from that though; it's their signature headstock.