Can’t decide between Kemper Stage or Fractal

[Sascha Franck]

If all you wanted is some taste teaser, the Line 6 offerings are the easiest to get some first hand experience with, too.
Given you have a decent audio interface (especially one with a suitable instrument input and ideally an external buffering pedal, such as all Boss units in bypass mode, which you could use to pimp less than ideal instrument inputs), you could try Helix Native. And in case you like what you hear, you then buy, say, a used HX Stomp for a better impression. In case you don't like it, you could sell it and in case you do like it, you could as well sell it and upgrade to a Floor or LT.
None of that is possible as easily with all the other units.

 

[razzmonid]

The one that works the way you prefer and fits your budget.

You could make various arguments for/against each of them:

• Quad Cortex does a lot in one box, but its effects are not at the level of Fractal or Line6. NeuralDSP hasn't done a great job updating it. Footswitch spacing is a bit cramped. But modern UI, compact form factor, or capture support might be worthwhile features tipping the scales.
• Fender Tone Master Pro is the new kid on the block, but it's early days with various issues.
• Helix is the price-to-performance champion. Helix Native plugin is also great additional value. But your options are "dinky HX Stomp user experience" vs "surfboard size device" for floor units. It's also less powerful than the newer products, even though Line6 has stretched the platform really far and it definitely does more than enough in one preset for most users.
• Fractal is the champ for amp/cab modeling and delay/reverb/modulation effects. Best computer editor, but clunkiest onboard UI. Most programmable footswitching. But Fractal is significantly more expensive than the competition in Europe and their FC footcontrollers are also very expensive.
• Kemper operates differently from the others and comes in a powered version so it's the easiest to use with a guitar cab. But it's 10 year old tech, not the most accurate capture system on the market anymore. It has had a really good run with some baffling ups and downs, like how it took Kemper over 10 years to offer USB audio interface capabilities. I'd buy this only used since it shouldn't be too hard to get.

I feel there isn't a goldilocks device that does everything perfectly - you need to pick which compromises are ok for you. Getting a good sound out of any of them is not a problem. I keep coming back to Fractal, but would recommend a Helix any day too.

There's Fender Tone Master Pro and also Tonex.


Seems that based on your statements above (sorry I am just representing it by the words that you used) just correct me or give your own order.

Fractal > Helix > Quad Cortex > Fender TMP > Kemper -> So in that case, does it mean that Fractal wins and Kemper loses?

 

[laxu]

There's Fender Tone Master Pro and also Tonex.


Seems that based on your statements above (sorry I am just representing it by the words that you used) just correct me or give your own order.

Fractal > Helix > Quad Cortex > Fender TMP > Kemper -> So in that case, does it mean that Fractal wins and Kemper loses?

"Win vs lose" is not a good way to look at this. There's plenty of people who like the Kemper better than Fractal and vice versa. The main reason I don't own a Kemper is that I don't care about the capture stuff.

Tonex is not a comparable product to the others. It sounds good, but has not much in the way of effects, has a shit tier app design and various inconveniences in the pedal. But it comes with Amplitube 5 and is much cheaper than the others so there's that.

 

[Sascha Franck]

"Win vs lose" is not a good way to look at this.

This.
IMO personal use cases are much more important than many sound related details. Sure, if all you do is recording in the premier league, sound quality likely trumps everything. But even in that league you'll find vastly different opinions about what to use when.

 

[Sedaxel]

The one that works the way you prefer and fits your budget.

You could make various arguments for/against each of them:

• Quad Cortex does a lot in one box, but its effects are not at the level of Fractal or Line6. NeuralDSP hasn't done a great job updating it. Footswitch spacing is a bit cramped. But modern UI, compact form factor, or capture support might be worthwhile features tipping the scales.
• Fender Tone Master Pro is the new kid on the block, but it's early days with various issues.
• Helix is the price-to-performance champion. Helix Native plugin is also great additional value. But your options are "dinky HX Stomp user experience" vs "surfboard size device" for floor units. It's also less powerful than the newer products, even though Line6 has stretched the platform really far and it definitely does more than enough in one preset for most users.
• Fractal is the champ for amp/cab modeling and delay/reverb/modulation effects. Best computer editor, but clunkiest onboard UI. Most programmable footswitching. But Fractal is significantly more expensive than the competition in Europe and their FC footcontrollers are also very expensive.
• Kemper operates differently from the others and comes in a powered version so it's the easiest to use with a guitar cab. But it's 10 year old tech, not the most accurate capture system on the market anymore. It has had a really good run with some baffling ups and downs, like how it took Kemper over 10 years to offer USB audio interface capabilities. I'd buy this only used since it shouldn't be too hard to get.

I feel there isn't a goldilocks device that does everything perfectly - you need to pick which compromises are ok for you. Getting a good sound out of any of them is not a problem. I keep coming back to Fractal, but would recommend a Helix any day too.

Completely agree.

I think this is a complicated moment to buy a multifx becasue:

- All of them have details with some room for improvement, pretty much as you´ve listed above.

- I´d add to that list the profiling for all units which haven´t that feature... a public domain technology should be present in any top unit, IMO. I think the present time is the inflection point for profiling becoming a normal feature in every unit.

- Some of the units are old. Wouldn´t be rare that there´s something just about to be launched from some brands. It starts to be risky to buy a Kemper or a Helix, for instance. Even when they´ve proved to be great at updating their systems, the hardware must start to show its age, I guess. Maybe still have years ahead, but maybe not.

- The brands "below" those top ones are going to launch new units with profiling, for sure, in not too much time. This will add pressure to the big names. Curious to see what Atomic, Zoom or Hotone could bring to the market.

If I had to buy today a top unit... I have to say that I´m not convinced by any of them. I had a Helix LT which I loved, but ended selling it because I noticed a clear colouring just plugging the guitar in a blank preset. It somehow changed the response of my guitar (I felt like the attack was cushioned or something like that). Don´t want a "complicated UI" either (Fractal). Don´t want to risk with a 10-year-old hardware (Kemper). Don´t like the cramped footswitches of the QC and its slow improvement pace. Don´t like the list of lacks, issues and meh-modelling of the TMP (price don´t helps either).

So I guess it´s better to wait a year or two, see what comes new and how profiling establishes in almost all brands, and have a better look of the market in this changing moment.

 

[razzmonid]

Completely agree.

I think this is a complicated moment to buy a multifx becasue:

- All of them have details with some room for improvement, pretty much as you´ve listed above.

- I´d add to that list the profiling for all units which haven´t that feature... a public domain technology should be present in any top unit, IMO. I think the present time is the inflection point for profiling becoming a normal feature in every unit.

- Some of the units are old. Wouldn´t be rare that there´s something just about to be launched from some brands. It starts to be risky to buy a Kemper or a Helix, for instance. Even when they´ve proved to be great at updating their systems, the hardware must start to show its age, I guess. Maybe still have years ahead, but maybe not.

- The brands "below" those top ones are going to launch new units with profiling, for sure, in not too much time. This will add pressure to the big names. Curious to see what Atomic, Zoom or Hotone could bring to the market.

If I had to buy today a top unit... I have to say that I´m not convinced by any of them. I had a Helix LT which I loved, but ended selling it because I noticed a clear colouring just plugging the guitar in a blank preset. It somehow changed the response of my guitar (I felt like the attack was cushioned or something like that). Don´t want a "complicated UI" either (Fractal). Don´t want to risk with a 10-year-old hardware (Kemper). Don´t like the cramped footswitches of the QC and its slow improvement pace. Don´t like the list of lacks, issues and meh-modelling of the TMP (price don´t helps either).

So I guess it´s better to wait a year or two, see what comes new and how profiling establishes in almost all brands, and have a better look of the market in this changing moment.

This is becoming like the iPhone buying problem. Not buying the current iPhone because the next one will have newer features. Which would be like an endless loop that you will end up not buying anything.

Maybe we could have some buying criteria or checklist:
- price, like can you afford something the in $1600-1700 range where the Helix Floor, Kemper Stage, QC, and FM9 are?
- Modeling (Helix, FM9) vs Profiling (Kemper) Or profiling with a little bit of modeling QC?
- tone vs quantity, do you want the best tones but limited variety or more variety and options but not that perfect tone?
- best in UI but not much control (Helix, QC), or UI with too many options but best in control (Fractal but somewhat also in Kemper)?
- Best in Amps or best in Multi FXs?
- Community support (plugins, profiles in case of Kemper (and QC))? Company support, timely updates?
- Form Factor (QC, HX Stomp, and FM3 are small), or the BIG ones, Helix, FM9, Kemper Stage. This does not include the Racks and Foot switches (Helix, Kemper and AX FX III).

Damn too many things to consider. And questions like, what if the sound does not come out right, what if this AMP in A is better than the AMP in B, and the FXs in this model....

Gear Forum, Downloading Manuals, reading reviews, listening to YouTube videos (Leo Gibson, ToneJunkie, Andertons, Sweetwater, Digital John, Digital Joe, Digital this, Digital that and the list goes on and on. So this Rabbit Hole of tone chasing won't ever end, will it?

 

[Sedaxel]

This is becoming like the iPhone buying problem. Not buying the current iPhone because the next one will have newer features. Which would be like an endless loop that you will end up not buying anything.

Maybe we could have some buying criteria or checklist:
- price, like can you afford something the in $1600-1700 range where the Helix Floor, Kemper Stage, QC, and FM9 are?
- Modeling (Helix, FM9) vs Profiling (Kemper) Or profiling with a little bit of modeling QC?
- tone vs quantity, do you want the best tones but limited variety or more variety and options but not that perfect tone?
- best in UI but not much control (Helix, QC), or UI with too many options but best in control (Fractal but somewhat also in Kemper)?
- Best in Amps or best in Multi FXs?
- Community support (plugins, profiles in case of Kemper (and QC))? Company support, timely updates?
- Form Factor (QC, HX Stomp, and FM3 are small), or the BIG ones, Helix, FM9, Kemper Stage. This does not include the Racks and Foot switches (Helix, Kemper and AX FX III).

Damn too many things to consider. And questions like, what if the sound does not come out right, what if this AMP in A is better than the AMP in B, and the FXs in this model....

Gear Forum, Downloading Manuals, reading reviews, listening to YouTube videos (Leo Gibson, ToneJunkie, Andertons, Sweetwater, Digital John, Digital Joe, Digital this, Digital that and the list goes on and on. So this Rabbit Hole of tone chasing won't ever end, will it?

Yeah! You´re so right, mate.

Luckily enough, I really enjoy the process! LOL...

 

[Sascha Franck]

So this Rabbit Hole of tone chasing won't ever end, will it?

Yes, it will. You need to find out what you need for yourself, see how close things get you and possibly find ways around the left over shortcomings. This is what I did and I'm quite happy with my current setup - which isn't even particularly expensive.
Yes, I'm still observing things and I'm as well considering certain devices, but I will only change something in case things will be noticeably improved. The latter is something, many, many people ignore, they're just always buying the latest stuff. I highly recommend to ignore any advices coming from that group of people, even in case they're smart and have lots of experience.

 

[laxu]

Maybe we could have some buying criteria or checklist:
- price, like can you afford something the in $1600-1700 range where the Helix Floor, Kemper Stage, QC, and FM9 are?

If we set this as the price point, then we can largely ignore the cost as a real factor when they are within a few hundred of each other.

- Modeling (Helix, FM9) vs Profiling (Kemper) Or profiling with a little bit of modeling QC?

If you have an armada of tube amps already, then capture tech will appeal a lot more than if you rely on 3rd party captures.
Otherwise all of them do enough when it comes to amp/cab models on offer.

- tone vs quantity, do you want the best tones but limited variety or more variety and options but not that perfect tone?

Highly personal. Whether I have 3 models in a Strymon Iridium or 300 in a Fractal doesn't make any difference as long as I can get sounds I like out of those 3. While it's fun to explore a cornucopia of amps, at some point you settle on a handful of favorites and then the rest kinda gets forgotten.

- best in UI but not much control (Helix, QC), or UI with too many options but best in control (Fractal but somewhat also in Kemper)?

Most people don't touch the advanced stuff available in Fractal, so IMO the number of parameters etc is not a real factor.

Onboard user interface and computer editor workflows might be a bigger differentiator. If you mostly work in a recording context, something like Axe-Edit will work great for you and you can largely ignore the Fractal onboard UI. If live use is more paramount, maybe the faster access to fx block controls on a Helix or QC is important.

- Best in Amps or best in Multi FXs?

Fractal is honestly both, but I really prefer Helix drive models to Fractal's selection. Helix also has some unique fx not found on Fractal and vice versa.

- Community support (plugins, profiles in case of Kemper (and QC))? Company support, timely updates?

Fractal and Line6 are uncontested here, though if you bought a Kemper when it was originally released, you would have enjoyed really long-term support.

- Form Factor (QC, HX Stomp, and FM3 are small), or the BIG ones, Helix, FM9, Kemper Stage. This does not include the Racks and Foot switches (Helix, Kemper and AX FX III).

Depends on how you want to work. I prefer more compact units because they can also be used on a desk. But there's something to be said for Helix's good number of footswitches and expression pedal - no extras needed.

Damn too many things to consider. And questions like, what if the sound does not come out right, what if this AMP in A is better than the AMP in B, and the FXs in this model....

If you don't like amp A, just find something you do like. Most modelers have plenty of options to choose from and whether device X is better than device Y for amp A is pretty irrelevant if you still get sounds you enjoy.

I know this isn't that helpful, but the point is that you can't distill any of the units to "this is the best, no contest" but have to try at least one for yourself and see how it works out. Even better if you can afford to buy a couple and put them head to head.

I had a QC, FM3 and Helix Floor at the same time at one point, and it really was not easy to pick which one I wanted to keep because all of them had something going that the others didn't do as well. I landed on the FM3 because it was a full-featured product and more compact than the Helix, whereas the QC had just been released back then so I didn't want to commit to it and hope future firmware updates would fix the things I didn't like.

 

[Piing]

Damn too many things to consider. And questions like, what if the sound does not come out right, what if this AMP in A is better than the AMP in B, and the FXs in this model....

If you find any amp in a Fractal unit that doesn't sound like the real one (beyond component tolerances) and you can prove it at the Fractal forum, Cliff will gladly fix the mistake if there is any.

At the historic firmware release notes you can find amendments like this:

Fixed wrong capacitor value in USA JP IIC+ models when Presence Shift is off.
Fixed wrong coupling capacitor value in 1959SLP Treble, 1959SLP Jumped and 1987x Treble amp models.
Fixed wrong resistor value in tone stack of Solo 88 Rhythm and Lead models. Probably not audible though.
Fixed low frequency behavior of Recto2 models due to loss of precision.
Fixed wrong treble pot taper in CA3+ models.
Fixed wrong capacitor value in Friedman HBE V1 Fat model.
Fixed wrong resistor value in AC-20 12AX7 models.
Fixed wrong Depth knob taper in Archean models.
Fixed wrong capacitor value and wrong feedback network connection in Energyball model.
Fixed missing resistor in Euro Uber tone stack.
Fixed High Mid control in Drive block set to minimum when importing presets created prior to 19.01.
Fixed wrong resistor value in Solo 88 Lead input circuit. Impact is probably negligible.
Fixed wrong resistor value in USA Pre LD2 overdrive circuit. This increases gain slightly. You may need to audition any presets using these models and adjust gain accordingly.
Fixed wrong B+ voltage for Temolo Lux amp model.
Fixed wrong resistor value in Brit JVM models causing excessive blocking distortion.
Fixed wrong capacitor value in Brit JVM OD1 Orange and Red models
Fixed wrong attenuation between preamp and power amp in Class-A 30W Bright model
Fixed wrong default Cathode Follower Compression values for Brit JVM and JS410 amp models.
Fixed wrong internal transformer matching value for Friedman Small Box model.
Fixed wrong bass pot taper in Friedman Small Box model.
Fixed wrong triode plate frequency in Herbie CH3 model.
Fixed wrong mid and treble tapers in all Herbie models. Existing presets should be auditioned.
Fixed wrong Preamp Bias value in Plexi 2204 model
Improved power tube modeling. This yields better dynamics, improved low frequency accuracy and more accurate interaction with output transformer.
Improved cathode follower algorithm. Provides more accurate “cleanup” when volume is rolled off.
Improved triode algorithm more accurately models plate bypass capacitors.
Improved dynamic frequency response accuracy. This yields more “crunch” and less “fizz” with high gain tones, especially for detuned styles.

The man never stops fixing and improving, and you can directly interact with him. That is another point to add to the comparison checklist.

 

[NightWalker]

So what's the verdict in the Year 2023 on Kemper (Stage and Rack) vs Fractal (assuming either FX III or FM9)?

Who won?

or Helix (Floor or LT) or Quad Cortex?

With all those updates so far.

Kemper? Fractal? Helix? Quad Cortex?

all are great devices,im a Kemper guy but i really like the other devices

 

[Orvillain]

So what's the verdict in the Year 2023 on Kemper (Stage and Rack) vs Fractal (assuming either FX III or FM9)?

Who won?

or Helix (Floor or LT) or Quad Cortex?

With all those updates so far.

Kemper? Fractal? Helix? Quad Cortex?

Kemper is old and long in the tooth. All the others still experience meaningful updates. Quad Cortex is more accurate than the Kemper for profiling. Helix and Fractal have very good modelling, making profiling unnecessary for most people.

 

[NightWalker]

If you find any amp in a Fractal unit that doesn't sound like the real one (beyond component tolerances) and you can prove it at the Fractal forum, Cliff will gladly fix the mistake if there is any.

At the historic firmware release notes you can find amendments like this:

Fixed wrong capacitor value in USA JP IIC+ models when Presence Shift is off.
Fixed wrong coupling capacitor value in 1959SLP Treble, 1959SLP Jumped and 1987x Treble amp models.
Fixed wrong resistor value in tone stack of Solo 88 Rhythm and Lead models. Probably not audible though.
Fixed low frequency behavior of Recto2 models due to loss of precision.
Fixed wrong treble pot taper in CA3+ models.
Fixed wrong capacitor value in Friedman HBE V1 Fat model.
Fixed wrong resistor value in AC-20 12AX7 models.
Fixed wrong Depth knob taper in Archean models.
Fixed wrong capacitor value and wrong feedback network connection in Energyball model.
Fixed missing resistor in Euro Uber tone stack.
Fixed High Mid control in Drive block set to minimum when importing presets created prior to 19.01.
Fixed wrong resistor value in Solo 88 Lead input circuit. Impact is probably negligible.
Fixed wrong resistor value in USA Pre LD2 overdrive circuit. This increases gain slightly. You may need to audition any presets using these models and adjust gain accordingly.
Fixed wrong B+ voltage for Temolo Lux amp model.
Fixed wrong resistor value in Brit JVM models causing excessive blocking distortion.
Fixed wrong capacitor value in Brit JVM OD1 Orange and Red models
Fixed wrong attenuation between preamp and power amp in Class-A 30W Bright model
Fixed wrong default Cathode Follower Compression values for Brit JVM and JS410 amp models.
Fixed wrong internal transformer matching value for Friedman Small Box model.
Fixed wrong bass pot taper in Friedman Small Box model.
Fixed wrong triode plate frequency in Herbie CH3 model.
Fixed wrong mid and treble tapers in all Herbie models. Existing presets should be auditioned.
Fixed wrong Preamp Bias value in Plexi 2204 model
Improved power tube modeling. This yields better dynamics, improved low frequency accuracy and more accurate interaction with output transformer.
Improved cathode follower algorithm. Provides more accurate “cleanup” when volume is rolled off.
Improved triode algorithm more accurately models plate bypass capacitors.
Improved dynamic frequency response accuracy. This yields more “crunch” and less “fizz” with high gain tones, especially for detuned styles.

The man never stops fixing and improving, and you can directly interact with him. That is another point to add to the comparison checklist.

that is the problem with fractal always fixing something,and what make me laugh is the people that always say omg this sound much better lol

 

[NightWalker]

Kemper is old and long in the tooth. All the others still experience meaningful updates. Quad Cortex is more accurate than the Kemper for profiling. Helix and Fractal have very good modelling, making profiling unnecessary for most people.

Kemper is just the best like it or no,Kemper still one of the best units out there,Kemper old i dont think so,old is my 80`s Ibanez guitar or my Marshall JCM

 

[Orvillain]

that is the problem with fractal always fixing something,and what make me laugh is the people that always say omg this sound much better lol

Oh yeah, a manufacturer actually supporting their product with meaningful updates and not iPad twattery. Who the fuck would want that!?!

 

[Mongillo19]

that is the problem with fractal always fixing something,and what make me laugh is the people that always say omg this sound much better lol

Not sure how it's a problem? And any digital device forum does the same....fractal just gives users more opportunity to say it

 

[JiveTurkey]

Kemper is just the best like it or no

 

[timbuck3]

that is the problem with fractal always fixing something,and what make me laugh is the people that always say omg this sound much better lol

Fractal is a smaller company and every gen gets better as it matures. The tmp came out with that convolution drippy reverb and cliff came out with his version. He is very fluid with what he can do because its his company and small whereas fender has bean counters and the software guys cant just impliment whatever they see fit. Line6 seems to have more flexibility then fender in this regard even though they are under the yamaha umbrella.

 

[timbuck3]

Kemper is just the best like it or no,Kemper still one of the best units out there,Kemper old i dont think so,old is my 80`s Ibanez guitar or my Marshall JCM

i think the liquid profiling is a great addition. From what i understand,and i may be wrong, the liquid profiling allows one to seem to change gain structure in the snapshot/profile so its more maluable?

 

[NightWalker]

Fractal is a smaller company and every gen gets better as it matures. The tmp came out with that convolution drippy reverb and cliff came out with his version. He is very fluid with what he can do because its his company and small whereas fender has bean counters and the software guys cant just impliment whatever they see fit. Line6 seems to have more flexibility then fender in this regard even though they are under the yamaha umbrella.

man im using fractal since 2014 and i know very well cliff and his gang