Calibrating Input Level for Plugins

[yeky83]

View attachment 32507

"our method for calibration is just to pretend SNR can be optimized beyond the laws of physics and its better to avoid accuracy all together"

If accuracy is what you want, fine. But this is dumb, that’s not what he said. “Some interfaces the SNR is too bad.” Actually read what he wrote and it makes perfect sense.

This crusade to misrepresent everyone who suggests otherwise to this input level accuracy obsession is super dumb. Some people care more about just getting a good sound, are they wrong? You know some people use a volume pedal or a boost in front of their amps, right? Give it a rest, geez.

 

[[Nathan]]

If accuracy is what you want, fine. But this is dumb, that’s not what he said. “Some interfaces the SNR is too bad.” Actually read what he wrote and it makes perfect sense.

This crusade to misrepresent everyone who suggests otherwise to this input level accuracy obsession is super dumb. Some people care more about just getting a good sound, are they wrong? You know some people use a volume pedal or a boost in front of their amps, right? Give it a rest, geez.

I just wish plugin companies would say the spec of their plugin and people can do what they want with that info, its literally that easy. As someone who was hoping that they'd give this information out, it was just a long way of not giving out any information and to just guess / "use your ears bro".

 

[2dor]

This crusade to misrepresent everyone who suggests otherwise to this input level accuracy obsession is super dumb.

Trying to gather information from plugin makers hardly comes across as a crusade. The sad thing to see is that sort of dismissive statement which has been posted earlier especially when coming from a dev.
If I try a plugin & they have an EoB preset in there, without knowing that calibration value I'm going to have a hard time landing on what it should sound like; it might be clean on my end or crunchy if hitting it too hard. We can always use them ears, sure but I for one prefer they come in after I understand what that baseline is. How is this dumb?

 

[yeky83]

I just wish plugin companies would say the spec of their plugin and people can do what they want with that info, its literally that easy. As someone who was hoping that they'd give this information out, it was just a long way of not giving out any information and to just guess / "use your ears bro".

Trying to gather information from plugin makers hardly comes across as a crusade. The sad thing to see is that sort of dismissive statement which has been posted earlier especially when coming from a dev.
If I try a plugin & they have an EoB preset in there, without knowing that calibration value I'm going to have a hard time landing on what it should sound like; it might be clean on my end or crunchy if hitting it too hard. We can always use them ears, sure but I for one prefer they come in after I understand what that baseline is. How is this dumb?

The DiBiQuadro post is clearly not a response to an info request. Maybe try asking before you cry about it if you're so curious, yeah?

I’m not saying that you having a preference for accuracy is dumb, I specifically said “if accuracy is what you want, fine.” It’s a gear forum, nerd out all you want, it’s cool and encouraged.

But there is no need to misconstrue others to manufacture offense, it's unseemly.

What support email do you think amp plugin companies get more, “why is it noisy?” or “why is the input bright cap behavior not quite accurate with the Gain knob at 11 o'clock like all the real life counterparts of this amp I’ve played?”
And if you think the best way for plugin companies to address to the masses about “how do you best dial in an EoB preset” is to direct them to look at a table of maximum input dBu of your interface vs. expected plugin dBFS when most people don’t even know what dB is or how to distinguish between dBu and dBFS, then yeah you’re on some dumb crusade. Have some sense about the context.

lol @ pretending to have a hard time dialing in EoB by ear.

 

[2dor]

The DiBiQuadro post is clearly not a response to an info request. Maybe try asking before you cry about it if you're so curious, yeah?

I’m not saying that you having a preference for accuracy is dumb, I specifically said “if accuracy is what you want, fine.” It’s a gear forum, nerd out all you want, it’s cool and encouraged.

But there is no need to misconstrue others to manufacture offense, it's unseemly.

What support email do you think amp plugin companies get more, “why is it noisy?” or “why is the input bright cap behavior not quite accurate with the Gain knob at 11 o'clock like all the real life counterparts of this amp I’ve played?”
And if you think the best way for plugin companies to address to the masses about “how do you best dial in an EoB preset” is to direct them to look at a table of maximum input dBu of your interface vs. expected plugin dBFS when most people don’t even know what dB is or how to distinguish between dBu and dBFS, then yeah you’re on some dumb crusade. Have some sense about the context.

lol @ pretending to have a hard time dialing in EoB by ear.

The EoB thing is meant to be an example but if you got a good laugh out of it, happy to help.

I'm firmly planted in knowing these values. Not saying that folks who aren't are wrong at all but that sort of condescending statement like the one which we saw a few posts back comes across as ignorant in the way it dismisses the whole calibration topic.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

If accuracy is what you want, fine. But this is dumb, that’s not what he said. “Some interfaces the SNR is too bad.” Actually read what he wrote and it makes perfect sense.

This crusade to misrepresent everyone who suggests otherwise to this input level accuracy obsession is super dumb. Some people care more about just getting a good sound, are they wrong? You know some people use a volume pedal or a boost in front of their amps, right? Give it a rest, geez.

I’ve asked them before about levels, and they’re clearly aware of the discussion going on.

It’s 2024 and you’re making it sound like SNR is somehow something that needs a manufacturer to explain how to solve. Same goes for dialling in a good tone - are these things that are so complex that we should use goofy input levels that don’t represent the real amp in order to achieve?

Making a tone sound good, and having the noise low are things users can work out themselves without needing assistance from a dev. Only the dev can provide information on how they’ve set up their internal calibration, and getting that information is clearly not always straightforward. It requires co-operation and assistance from a dev, not gaslighting.

You can call it a crusade like it’s a bad thing, but actually getting hold of proper values from various companies has been transformative for achieving all 3 of a good SNR, a decent tone with any sim, and something that behaves accurately to the real world. Making it sound like it’s not possible to achieve all 3 is stupid, as are the implications that accuracy is pointless and that better tones can be achieved with incorrect levels. If you know the calibration, it doesn’t mean you can’t boost or attenuate the input, it just means you’re doing it as a creative choice rather than stabbing in the dark to find a unity that seems appropriate.

Comparing guessing input levels to using a volume pedal is totally off base, unless you have several chained in a row and all except one are set randomly. When you use them with a real amp, you still know where unity is, and hitting things harder or softer is a conscious choice. The amp designs have made decisions one where it’s going to operate in a way that makes most sense with tapers and switches and channels, it’s not worth discarding that because “I think using it wrong will work better”.

And lastly, we all have access to tons of emulations of SLO, XTC, IIC+, recto etc. How can we tell if the next new one in line is better than what we have without establishing some kind of baseline? and what about if we’re familiar with those real amps? I want to use my real world familiarity to inform how I use the software, otherwise why bother making it an emulation at all?

What is it you’re trying to contribute to this thread? That everyone is stupid or wasting their time somehow? Turning into a debate that makes it sound like it’s “good snr or accurate amp behaviour” or that good tone and correct levels are mutually exclusive is an unhelpful distraction. The reason the values are important is because it means we can satisfy all of them, nothing has to be conceded.

 

[yeky83]

I’ve asked them before about levels

What did they say in reply?

It’s 2024 and you’re making it sound like SNR is somehow something that needs a manufacturer to explain how to solve.

For a lot of their customer base, yeah.

Making it sound like it’s not possible to achieve all 3 is stupid

Who's even saying that?

And lastly, we all have access to tons of emulations of SLO, XTC, IIC+, recto etc. How can we tell if the next new one in line is better than what we have without establishing some kind of baseline? and what about if we’re familiar with those real amps? I want to use my real world familiarity to inform how I use the software, otherwise why bother making it an emulation at all?

You want to compare two SLO amp plugins and get their input levels aligned? You can match the gain knob and see which one's gainier, and lower the input gain into that one.

You have familiarity with the real amps? Use that familiarity to set the plugin input gain.

I appreciate that you want to get exactly accurate with this stuff. But for deciding "which plugin do I think is better" or "which plugin behaves like my amp," let's not pretend we have to get this stuff so granularly accurate in order to make those evaluations.

What is it you’re trying to contribute to this thread? That everyone is stupid or wasting their time somehow?

"I’m not saying that you having a preference for accuracy is dumb, I specifically said “if accuracy is what you want, fine.” It’s a gear forum, nerd out all you want, it’s cool and encouraged.

"But there is no need to misconstrue others to manufacture offense, it's unseemly."

Turning into a debate that makes it sound like it’s “good snr or accurate amp behaviour” or that good tone and correct levels are mutually exclusive

I haven't. You keep tilting at windmills.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

What did they say in reply?

"From my point of view the best approach in this case is "whatever sounds good to you".

The level in input depends on too many factors (it is not about "measuring something" with a multimeter):
- how hot are your pickups?
- how hot is set your interface?
- which tone you want to achieve (increasing the gain on the amp sim is different than increasing the input level...)"

^Usual gaslight type of response rather than just giving a value.

You want to compare two SLO amp plugins and get their input levels aligned? You can match the gain knob and see which one's gainier, and lower the input gain into that one.

This is a bad method to compare - you're not giving either option a fair chance to sound their best that way. Calibrating is easy, all that needs to be done is adjusting the input knob. Why not just hear them as intended as the starting point?

You have familiarity with the real amps? Use that familiarity to set the plugin input gain.

This is also a particularly uninspiring way to do something that takes less than 1 second to do with accurate calibration. Have you used Amplitube before? and why guess when the information can just be provided?

“if accuracy is what you want, fine.” It’s a gear forum, nerd out all you want, it’s cool and encouraged.

Accuracy is what I want. Its the same with my mics, studio gear, guitars, TV and anything else. I can get by perfectly fine winging it, or using stuff that's broken, or different to how its intended. But at some point I also like to know if something is broken, or I'm just using it wrong. "is my 2204 broken, or is it meant to be this undergained?". Getting an accurate response shouldn't be something that is reserved for the forum geeks, its just a sensible starting off point. Do any Fractal/Line 6/NDSP/TMP/etc users complain about everything being nicely set up level wise for them? or that using "correct" levels inhibits their ability to dial a tone in?

It should be a relatively easy question for a developer to answer and then everyone moves on with their life. Turning it to some strawman "just dial it to sound good bro" discussion doesn't benefit anyone ultimately, who isn't doing that anyway?

 

[[Nathan]]

You want to compare two SLO amp plugins and get their input levels aligned? You can match the gain knob and see which one's gainier, and lower the input gain into that one.

You have familiarity with the real amps? Use that familiarity to set the plugin input gain.

If the plugins just mentioned the input calibration then people wouldn’t need to guess things and mess around with level matching in the dark, literally easier to set a level than what you’re mentioning.

The mental gymnastics around not wanting an input spec is pretty amazing.

 

[Sedaxel]

This crusade to misrepresent everyone who suggests otherwise to this input level accuracy obsession is super dumb. Some people care more about just getting a good sound, are they wrong? You know some people use a volume pedal or a boost in front of their amps, right? Give it a rest, geez.

Seriously?

They talk about "misleading" info, "false dogma", and whatnot.

Here, nobody said it's bad to use you amp Sims, or your guitars, or your microwave or your hairdryer exactly in the way you want. NEVER.

Here, nobody told anyone that "using your ears" to get the tone you want is stupid. It's a perfectly fine option, and so was said once and again here.

What amazes me is that some, like you, can feel offended or "misrepresented" when wise mates here are warning their other mates that, if they search for the most accurate use of their Sims, the way is calibrating input gain.

At the end, your opinion is no worrying (Will mostly affect you and, hey, if you don't mind it's ok). The most worrying is that a dev enters the game negating what obviously is true, and aiming users to not let other mislead them with false dogmas.

My god, when one thinks it's over, here we go again. It's not us who attack those who want to use their ears. It's some who attack us saying that only knowing (and making aware other mates) the fact that calibrating will lead to more accuracy, is misleading and spreading false dogmas.

 

[2dor]

Look guys, people are free to do whatever they want. If something sounds better just fiddling with the knobs while with your eyes closed that's perfectly fine. But talking down on others who want to know the details just shows poor character.

FWIW, Universal Audio seem to think calibration matters:

https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/30847259997972-Lion-68-Super-Lead-Amp-Manual#h_01J9NB4ECVEHKN53591D9GZ0DF

 

[Wasbeer]

It's a good start. Would have been even better if they mentioned specifically that their plugins are designed around ~12.5 dBu (for people with other audio interfaces) and also implement numbered dB readouts on the inputknob in their plugins.

Currently I'm using a separate gain plugin to adjust the inputlevel for their plugins.

 

[Orvillain]

 

[Orvillain]

your microwave

Some people here should jimmy the door for their microwave and then cook their own face for a few minutes. They'd probably be smarter.

 

[yeky83]

^Usual gaslight type of response rather than just giving a value.

Well that’s crappy. Maybe they farm out development and dunno themselves.

This is a bad method to compare - you're not giving either option a fair chance to sound their best that way. Calibrating is easy, all that needs to be done is adjusting the input knob. Why not just hear them as intended as the starting point?

This is also a particularly uninspiring way to do something that takes less than 1 second to do with accurate calibration. Have you used Amplitube before? and why guess when the information can just be provided?

We could tell which plugins were good and which weren’t for years and years before all this. Is it better with input calibration and is it good to do so if you can, sure that was never in debate.

It should be a relatively easy question for a developer to answer and then everyone moves on with their life. Turning it to some strawman "just dial it to sound good bro" discussion doesn't benefit anyone ultimately, who isn't doing that anyway?

Agreed, bad response from them.

 

[yeky83]

If the plugins just mentioned the input calibration then people wouldn’t need to guess things and mess around with level matching in the dark, literally easier to set a level than what you’re mentioning.

The mental gymnastics around not wanting an input spec is pretty amazing.

When did I ever say I did not want input specs? You keep making stuff up to flame over, stop it you’re a grown man.

Here, nobody said it's bad to use you amp Sims, or your guitars, or your microwave or your hairdryer exactly in the way you want. NEVER.

Here, nobody told anyone that "using your ears" to get the tone you want is stupid. It's a perfectly fine option, and so was said once and again here.

@MirrorProfiles says it’s a “bad method” and “uninspiring.”

What amazes me is that some, like you, can feel offended or "misrepresented" when wise mates here are warning their other mates that, if they search for the most accurate use of their Sims, the way is calibrating input gain.

At the end, your opinion is no worrying (Will mostly affect you and, hey, if you don't mind it's ok). The most worrying is that a dev enters the game negating what obviously is true, and aiming users to not let other mislead them with false dogmas.

My god, when one thinks it's over, here we go again. It's not us who attack those who want to use their ears. It's some who attack us saying that only knowing (and making aware other mates) the fact that calibrating will lead to more accuracy, is misleading and spreading false dogmas.

I’ve never attacked anyone for wanting input level accuracy. Stop it.

I literally came in here with just one point—stop misconstruing others to manufacture offense. And y’all keep doing just that

 

[MirrorProfiles]

@MirrorProfiles says it’s a “bad method” and “uninspiring.”

compared to just setting things at unity, it's a kind of slow and pointless way to do it. Its not typically how anyone uses real amps or HW modellers as their starting point (where you'd hear it at unity first before making any decisions on what it needs), but everyone is welcome to approach things however they like (even if it seems daft to me). I think generally guitarists want to plug in and adjust the settings on the amp and the less BS there is in between, the happier we are.

 

[Sedaxel]

I’ve never attacked anyone for wanting input level accuracy. Stop it.

You said:

"This crusade to misrepresent everyone who suggests otherwise to this input level accuracy obsession is super dumb"

That's not attacking, ok.

Apart from liying (because We're just informing, not misrepresenting anyone in anything. Yes, We point out when someone, especially a dev, is spreading wrong information) you're saying we're obsessed and even dumb. Hey, kudos for "not attacking" so greatly.

Again, We absolutely have nothing against users who just pass on across l accuracy and just use their ears.

You're the one who should stop it.

 

[yeky83]

You said:

"This crusade to misrepresent everyone who suggests otherwise to this input level accuracy obsession is super dumb"

That's not attacking, ok.

Apart from lying (because We're just informing, not misrepresenting anyone in anything. Yes, We point out when someone, especially a dev, is spreading wrong information) your saying were obsessed and even dumb. Hey, kudos for "not attacking" so greatly.

Again, We absolutely have nothing against users who just pass on across l accuracy and just use their ears.

Your the one who should stop it.

The reading comprehension… I’ve never attacked anyone for wanting input level accuracy. I’m attacking y’all for misrepresenting others for the sake of whining.

 

[2dor]

The reading comprehension… I’ve never attacked anyone for wanting input level accuracy. I’m attacking y’all for misrepresenting others for the sake of whining.

Must be hard being the only grownup in the room