Calibrating Input Level for Plugins

[James Freeman]

youtube experts

 

[Aleksi]

"Gain staging. It's literally an industry standard for digital modeling." Is what I got in response. So just turn it up as high as you can! More gain is more gooder!

 

[ivanmancic]

Info for those with Antelope interfaces:
I measured the input in my Zen GO USB and it turns out that 20dBu in official specs is waaaaay off, or not related to instrument input.
Actual value is 34.618 which requires 22db of gain to get to Helix Native required level (and sounds right). Problem is, most plugins do not allow for that much gain in software, so I have to bump it on the preamp.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

just stumbled on this video which might be useful for anyone who wants the whole dBu vs dBFS relationship explained:

 

[BuckTennington]

Ha all good, was just curious if it was there for a reason or from something else. The gate in OP is specifically for Helix Native and would need to be the gate within that plugin.

Try following this guide:

Is a re-amp box necessary? I've been using the Duet's headphone out as a loopback. Nevertheless, I don't get near the 14 dBu reported on Apogee's website. Another thing that I noticed is that I have to turn Duet's output volume to max for the voltage meter to pick anything up. I've watched your suggested video a few times and I don't know what I'm doing wrong other that not using a re-amp box. Any suggestions?

 

[bikescene]

Is a re-amp box necessary? I've been using the Duet's headphone out as a loopback. Nevertheless, I don't get near the 14 dBu reported on Apogee's website. Another thing that I noticed is that I have to turn Duet's output volume to max for the voltage meter to pick anything up. I've watched your suggested video a few times and I don't know what I'm doing wrong other that not using a re-amp box. Any suggestions?

Do you have a Duet 2 or 3? The headphone out is 19dBu on the Duet 2. I haven’t seen detailed specs for the 3.

Duet 2 Specifications

Check out Duet 2 specs below.

knowledge.apogeedigital.com

Can you use temporarily use the main out set to -10dBv to output your reference sine tone? If you can, disable any input monitoring so you don’t have feedback.

It’s nice to have a reamp box, but you could get away with a transformer isolator only if you get any noise from your line outs.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

great to see people getting the kinds of tones and experience they expect from plugins. was the same lightbulb thing for me, and many others

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Rhett Shull talking about this in about 20 minutes….

We Need To Talk About Amp Plugins (theres a problem)

Get 50% Off The CAGED Course Here:https://rhettshullguitarcourses.com/p/the-caged-course?coupon_code=LIVE50&product_id=5055677A few weeks ago, I was on a new...

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[eon]

"Gain staging. It's literally an industry standard for digital modeling." Is what I got in response. So just turn it up as high as you can! More gain is more gooder!

 

[ChordInversion]

We should start asking for these values from manufacturers for their software plugins like Amplitube and NDSP.
The most accessible and convenient for the customer and manufacturer is to provide RMS values anyone can measure with a multimeter and dBFS values we can clearly see in the DAW or plugin.

The calibration value for HX/Helix/Native is (all the same):
1v Peak = -12dBFS
707mv RMS = -12dBFS
500mv RMS = -15dBFS

EDIT:
20*log(500/707) = -3dB.
In case you are wondering why they are all the same.

Old post, but reading it, I will point out that people have been asking IK Multimedia for this info for months. IK stonewalls and suggests people open a support ticket. It's not a matter for a ticket. It's a matter for the manual and the FAQ.

 

[ivanmancic]

How a company like IK can make really good sounding plugins and yet have input gain messed up so much on their products (including on per-model basis) is beyond me. It feels like a company that employs a few geniuses who brought in their inept cousins to do the UI and gain staging.

 

[discondition]

great to see people getting the kinds of tones and experience they expect from plugins. was the same lightbulb thing for me, and many others

Finally, someone made a video on it! I always suspected there was an issue when I used plugins.

I have an Axe-FX III and realised I was facing this problem here too. I tried aligning my input block level with my output block level, without anything in between, and got the same results as the video!

I opted for a shortcut approach, adjusting globally via the global 'Input 1 gain' knob, and it worked so well. I suspect the input was too hot because my pickups are high-gain (BKP Juggernauts, Nailbombs, M8s), causing most of the clean presets to sound overly driven. I settled on a value of 0.25 for all my guitars, a quarter of the original level. Now, going through my chain, everything sounds much better!

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

Finally, someone made a video on it! I always suspected there was an issue when I used plugins.

I have an Axe-FX III and realised I was facing this problem here too. I tried aligning my input block level with my output block level, without anything in between, and got the same results as the video!

I opted for a shortcut approach, adjusting globally via the input one gain, and it worked so well. I suspect the input was too hot because my pickups are high-gain (BKP Juggernauts, Nailbombs, M8s), causing most of the clean presets to sound overly driven. I settled on a value of 0.25 for all my guitars, a quarter of the original level. Now, going through my chain, everything sounds much better!

Welcome to the forum!

However, I'm afraid you haven't understood the problem properly. This is not about using modeling devices like the Axe-FX or Helix - only if you are using them as guitar DI input devices for plugins.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Edit, holding fire because we might yet get an answer

 

[discondition]

Welcome to the forum!

However, I'm afraid you haven't understood the problem properly. This is not about using modeling devices like the Axe-FX or Helix - only if you are using them as guitar DI input devices for plugins.

Thanks for the welcome!

I haven't misunderstood, I clearly pointed out that I was facing this problem with the AxeFx too (having experienced it with plugins in the past). Other digital forms of "amp in the box" can benefit from reducing the input gain before it hits the amp if you have hotter pickups than it was designed for, I'm sure that digital hardware is also built with a specific input level in mind, it's 1s and 0s at the end of the day, and different companies and products are designed with different expected input levels.

 

[Wasbeer]

Thanks for the welcome!

I haven't misunderstood, I clearly pointed out that I was facing this problem with the AxeFx too (having experienced it with plugins in the past). Other digital forms of "amp in the box" can benefit from reducing the input gain before it hits the amp if you have hotter pickups than it was designed for, I'm sure that digital hardware is also built with a specific input level in mind, it's 1s and 0s at the end of the day, and different companies and products are designed with different expected input levels.

Not sure. The models on the hardware modellers are obviously calibrated to the modeller's input already. This is about calibrating a software plugin to different types of hardware interfaces.

You won't benefit any from lowering input gain on your AxeFX, other than you play the modelled amp with less gain than intended. Like you turned down your guitar's volume knob.

 

[the-trooper]

Thanks for the welcome!

No one is welcome until we hear, dill pickles or sweet pickles?

 

[DLC86]

Thanks for the welcome!

I haven't misunderstood, I clearly pointed out that I was facing this problem with the AxeFx too (having experienced it with plugins in the past). Other digital forms of "amp in the box" can benefit from reducing the input gain before it hits the amp if you have hotter pickups than it was designed for, I'm sure that digital hardware is also built with a specific input level in mind, it's 1s and 0s at the end of the day, and different companies and products are designed with different expected input levels.

The axe fx models are calibrated for those inputs specifically, and the level on those inputs is also auto-conpensated when you adjust the input gain in the I/O settings, so no, this issue doesn't apply to this hardware (on some other hardware modelers it does though).
Obviously if reducing the input gain sounds better to you, you're free to do that anyway.

 

[Deadpan]

Not sure. The models on the hardware modellers are obviously calibrated to the modeller's input already. This is about calibrating a software plugin to different types of hardware interfaces.

You won't benefit any from lowering input gain on your AxeFX, other than you play the modelled amp with less gain than intended. Like you turned down your guitar's volume knob.

I have many guitars that I HAVE to lower the input with or the Axe screams at me it is clipping the input.

Yes, the Axe compensates but there is good reason to adjust it.

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

Well, I guess you just can't prevent people from drawing wrong conclusions.

This thread was never about input clipping, but about calibrating the input level of third-party audio interfaces to the reference levels of various plug-in manufacturers. This does usually not apply to modeling devices like the Helix or Axe-FX because their input levels are already calibrated.