Any Widespread Panic Players Here?

[Byrdman]

Maybe @spawnofthesith ??? I thought I saw you posting a few months ago discussing jam bands...

I'm going to play with some guys next week and they threw Fishing by WSP at me to learn. They are playing acoustic and I'll be on electric and they play a lot of Jam Band stuff I believe. Any tips on how Michael Houser and/or Jimmy Herring plays solos & fills in general? I don't want to embarrass myself too bad and I have not really gotten into modes or CAGED much yet. Thankfully this song is pretty easy chord progression. I was screwing around with the lead run melody in Dmaj scale and Dmin & Amin Pentatonic over the progression and it seemed to fit pretty okay. The lead run at the end of the verses seems to be Dmaj scale. Also, what Key would you put this song in? With D, Bb, G, C it seems its either Bb with all minors changed to majors, or G with a Bb accidental even though the song begins on D and ends on C? Or something else entirely I'm not seeing?

Around 4:30



Thanks for any help!

 

[spawnofthesith]

I'm a WSP fan, but can't say I've ever tackled any of their songs...

Stylistically I'd say Herring and Houser are pretty different. Houser was a little more atmospheric, and Herring is kind of liquid shred god

In terms of theory, without sitting down with the tune and a guitar in my hand I can't really comment, not that you'd necessarily want questionable theory advice anyway lol

Sorry I'm not of anymore assistance! Sounds like a fun endeavor! And at the end of the day, if they're jam guys I'm sure they'd be happy with you applying you're own style to the lead playing without getting -too- caught up with trying to clone houser/herring

I'd try jamming along with several different live versions from different eras for sure

 

[sleewell]

didnt houser use reverse delay?

 

[Byrdman]

I'm a WSP fan, but can't say I've ever tackled any of their songs...

Stylistically I'd say Herring and Houser are pretty different. Houser was a little more atmospheric, and Herring is kind of liquid shred god

In terms of theory, without sitting down with the tune and a guitar in my hand I can't really comment, not that you'd necessarily want questionable theory advice anyway lol

Sorry I'm not of anymore assistance! Sounds like a fun endeavor! And at the end of the day, if they're jam guys I'm sure they'd be happy with you applying you're own style to the lead playing without getting -too- caught up with trying to clone houser/herring

I'd try jamming along with several different live versions from different eras for sure

Thanks for the info! I have Audacity and able to slow down and isolate the solo in that live version once I rip that YT video as a MP3, but I was hoping you had some secret sauce to save some time, lol!!

I'll let you know what I think it is once I break it down in case you ever want to play it.

 

[Byrdman]

didnt houser use reverse delay?

Not sure, but from what I have heard, it sounded like he used a lot of stuff in his songs over the years.

 

[spawnofthesith]

Relisten is a good free resource for live panic (and other jam bands) shows if you want to poke around and compare different houser and herring versions (or even compare to themselves). 2400 shows on here:

https://relisten.net/wsp

There's services like nugs.net or panicstream too that will have higher quality soundboard recordings, but those have a subscription fee

 

[FuzzyAce]

I'm more of a Herring fan than WSP, although I listened to them more a lotta years ago.

 

[Byrdman]

I'm more of a Herring fan than WSP, although I listened to them more a lotta years ago.

Yeah, I was more in to them back in their Space Wrangler days and really liked them a lot. Broke up with my hippie girl at the time and went the Grunge direction.

 

[Sascha Franck]

First of: Key of the song )until the key change somewhere after the guitar solo at 6:30 or so, seems to be a rather static Am jam after that) is Dm (natural/aeolian, if you want), main chord progression is |Dm Bb| C | with the occasional G thrown in on the first half of the second bar. Then there's that little bridge kinda thing (after the unison line part) at around 2:03, which goes:
|Ebadd9|G |Ebadd|Csus C|Ebadd9|Csus|C |C |C |
i honestly didn't hear any D major stuff all throughout.

Are you supposed to mimic any of the playing of their guitarists when soloing/filling? The stuff Herring (it's Herring here, right?) is playing in the video is pretty much bog standard D minor widdly-widdly and IMO neither technically challenging nor sounding particularly Herring-ish.

Btw, can't help it, but I really doubt some bass notes (especially at the end of the guitar solo) are really meant to be those notes (or the bassist felt things in a rather strange way...).

 

[Byrdman]

First of: Key of the song )until the key change somewhere after the guitar solo at 6:30 or so, seems to be a rather static Am jam after that) is Dm (natural/aeolian, if you want), main chord progression is |Dm Bb| C | with the occasional G thrown in on the first half of the second bar. Then there's that little bridge kinda thing (after the unison line part) at around 2:03, which goes:
|Ebadd9|G |Ebadd|Csus C|Ebadd9|Csus|C |C |C |
i honestly didn't hear any D major stuff all throughout.

Are you supposed to mimic any of the playing of their guitarists when soloing/filling? The stuff Herring (it's Herring here, right?) is playing in the video is pretty much bog standard D minor widdly-widdly and IMO neither technically challenging nor sounding particularly Herring-ish.

Btw, can't help it, but I really doubt some bass notes (especially at the end of the guitar solo) are really meant to be those notes (or the bassist felt things in a rather strange way...).

Thanks for the info! I will check it out soon. Unfortunately, the guys I was going to play with never got back to me on a time to play. I called and sent text messages, but all I got back were cant do it this week. IMO, it never gets any better, so I may bail out on them. No sense in learning or writing a solo for a song I may never play.

Thanks again, I may need it after the holidays if they ever get it together.

 

[Sascha Franck]

No sense in learning or writing a solo for a song I may never play.

Would you really have to learn/write a solo for that kinda stuff? I mean, this is music made for jamming and interaction, I would even consider pre-learned/written solos as counterproductive. Or is it that you just don't feel safe enough to do some instant widdly-widdly on your own? In that case, we could just take this as an opportunity and maybe help you out, no?

 

[Byrdman]

Would you really have to learn/write a solo for that kinda stuff? I mean, this is music made for jamming and interaction, I would even consider pre-learned/written solos as counterproductive. Or is it that you just don't feel safe enough to do some instant widdly-widdly on your own? In that case, we could just take this as an opportunity and maybe help you out, no?

Yeah I guess this didn't come out like I meant. What I usually do in situations like this is find a version of the song with a good sounding, to me, solo and steal a few licks from it that seem important, any turnarounds, resolves, tension and release, etc. then I just try to fill in in-between those more important parts. Although this may not be the best way to approach it, that is what I was working on.

By all means, I'm always eager to learn more than what I know now, so any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

 

[Sascha Franck]

By all means, I'm always eager to learn more than what I know now, so any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Well, hard to suggest anything as I have no idea about your level.
I could possibly post a backing of the main part and we could just noodle around some.

 

[Byrdman]

Well, hard to suggest anything as I have no idea about your level.
I could possibly post a backing of the main part and we could just noodle around some.

I feel like an intermediate level player, but you may think differently. I can play Stairway to Heaven solo all the way through and a few others at tempo, just not note for note perfect, but getting there. Usually don't have any issues playing most rock rhythms and chord structures, no Jazz experience. I know Maj & Min pentatonic scales, Major scale patterns, no modes, and have not done much in CAGED either. I can handle 1/16
note trips at 60-70 BPM pretty well on pentatonic runs.

I've got a lot going on this week since it's Thanksgiving, but after Thursday, I'll have time this weekend to work on anything. Even if you want to throw some ideas at me to work on, I'm up for the challenge.

I hope that gives you and idea on where I'm at and I'm always looking to get better. Whatever you think, I'm sure it will help.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I can play Stairway to Heaven solo all the way through and a few others at tempo, just not note for note perfect, but getting there.

Well, IMO this isn't about copying anything. It's about rolling your own. Which comes along with pros and cons. The pro being that you don't have to try and adapt whatever finger patterns, musical ideas and what not. The con being that after that point, there's just one person to blame, namely you.

I know Maj & Min pentatonic scales, Major scale patterns, no modes, and have not done much in CAGED either.

IMO modes are easy (we could have a look at them) and CAGED is something I have mixed feelings about - in fact, there's different CAGED approaches that I always found to vary quite a bit (once it goes a bit beyond the building blocks).

I can handle 1/16
note trips at 60-70 BPM pretty well on pentatonic runs.

That's absolutely fine. It's not about speedy runs anyway, but much more about phrasing and articulation - which can take you a long way, even without any technical trickery.

I've got a lot going on this week since it's Thanksgiving, but after Thursday, I'll have time this weekend to work on anything. Even if you want to throw some ideas at me to work on, I'm up for the challenge.

No worries, I've got no plans to leave this forum any day soon, so we can as well try to make this a slower but ongoing thing.

I hope that gives you and idea on where I'm at and I'm always looking to get better. Whatever you think, I'm sure it will help.

All fine.
One thing though: You don't need to be afraid to get caught pants down. In other words, at one point in time you will have to post some recordings of yours. Otherwise it's impossible to tell whether things are working out well.

Apart from that, the very tune from above (or rather its main part) should be fine as a tryout thing. It's somewhere around 94BPM, so 16th notes aren't completely out of the equation (expect some slowdown when rolling your own stuff).

 

[Sascha Franck]

Made a backing of the main part which I think is ok... let me know whether you want it, how much of it, slower version too, etc. (added some 8th note noodling just to show it's not about speed).

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, original starts quite a lot slower and is getting continuosly faster.

 

[Byrdman]

Made a backing of the main part which I think is ok... let me know whether you want it, how much of it, slower version too, etc. (added some 8th note noodling just to show it's not about speed).

Sounds great! Longer version or I can loop it as long as the phrase is a clean cutoff would be much appreciated. I use Audacity to slow down songs so I can learn them, so any clip in an MP3, wav, etc format is workable on my end. I can also slow it down, speed it up, and just about any other action I need to do.

What you said about phrasing earlier is definitely something I struggle with. I do like to improvise to different backing tracks on YT and I seem to be able to find a melody and stick to it, but my phrasing, to put it bluntly, kinda sucks IMO, lol.

How would you suggest I record? I assume Audacity, or any DAW, will let you record, but do I need an AI to make it happen?

Thank you @Sascha Franck for taking the time to help!!

 

[Sascha Franck]

Longer version or I can loop it as long as the phrase is a clean cutoff would be much appreciated. I use Audacity to slow down songs so I can learn them, so any clip in an MP3, wav, etc format is workable on my end. I can also slow it down, speed it up, and just about any other action I need to do.

For now, here's 6 versions, around 3:45 each, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100 BPM (I know you can stretch them yourself, but this went very quickly).

but my phrasing, to put it bluntly, kinda sucks IMO, lol.

Why do you think so? And is it your phrasing or rather your articulation? Or both?
Just to make sure:
Phrasing = tonal choices, rhythmic choices, partially dynamic choices, can be played on pretty much all instruments.
Articulation = Instrument based tonal shapings (bends, slurs, slides, anything guitar related in this case).

And well, even if your phrasing and/or articulation suck (which I have no idea about), the good thing is, that (unlike with any kind of fretboard wizardry) you can improve on it at any age and with not all *that* much effort. At least for phrasing that is true.
Ever thought about pickups? Not the things to grab your guitar tone but musical pickups - as in some little lines anticipating whatever target notes? In case you haven't, IMO that'd be a great place to start, especially as there's little technical stuff involved (at least for a start).

How would you suggest I record? I assume Audacity, or any DAW, will let you record, but do I need an AI to make it happen?

Are you using a modeler with onboard interface? Well, it actually doesn't matter much. As long as you can make things heard when you play, you could as well just record with a smartphone.

 

[Sascha Franck]

(Link added to previous post)