Am I crazy? Ok yes, but what about this belief I am developing with Helix modeling?

[Bob Zaod]

I swear that when using tube powered amps with Helix that using the proper tube type yields way better and way more accurate results. As someone who has owned some of the amps in Helix I am talking about and in some cases played through them for thousands of hours. The Marshall type amps in Helix sound and feel way more accurate going through the return of my EL34 Marshall DSL and the Mark and Rectifier models yield the same type of results through the 6L6 powered Spider Valve MKII.

I thought maybe I was crazy so I flipped it and used the Recto and Mark amps in Helix into my DSL and it doesnt sound or feel right at all even after tweaks. Did the same using Marshall stuff through the 6L6 Spider Valve. I will say that the difference wasn't as stark with Marshall stuff going through the 6L6's as the aforementioned was.

That said as a former owner of a 2203 JCM800 the Brit 2204 and 2204 MOD sound way closer to that 2203 I had than any modeler I have chased that tone with. I know they are different amps IRL but it gets so damn close using the DSL Marshall to power the 2204 amps in Helix. Also have owned quite a few Mesa amps.

Gotta be something to this and maybe @James Freeman or someone more tech savvy than I with amps and modeling could explain it better.

By the way this was tested at med/large gig type of volumes. Averaged 98-100db @10ft.

 

[HotRats]

I've not done any testing but when I've bought the Helix in 2017 I used to run it (using Marshall models) through the power section of whatever amp was available, most of the time some Marshall amp with a 4x12 (or my Marshall 2555x and Engl cab)

They all sounded a little different but I never had an issue and they all sounded pretty good actually, even the cheap MG head I've used several times. When I moved to a SS power amp I honestly missed the power tube amplification.

I believe there's somenthing about how the speaker and the amp talk each other when you turn up the volume at gig level.

I thought about buying a fryette PS2 or PS100 but the cost doesn't justify the difference in the end.

 

[JiveTurkey]

The DSL has a GREAT power section for modeling. I loved using mine when I had it for this purpose.

 

[la szum]

I don't know if that is Helix specific, as much as modeler specific. This just seems
to me to be the case, especially if you grew up playing tube amps through guitar
cabs. That is the sound/feel you know the best.

 

[GuitarDave]

I swear that when using tube powered amps with Helix that using the proper tube type yields way better and way more accurate results. As someone who has owned some of the amps in Helix I am talking about and in some cases played through them for thousands of hours. The Marshall type amps in Helix sound and feel way more accurate going through the return of my EL34 Marshall DSL and the Mark and Rectifier models yield the same type of results through the 6L6 powered Spider Valve MKII.

I thought maybe I was crazy so I flipped it and used the Recto and Mark amps in Helix into my DSL and it doesnt sound or feel right at all even after tweaks. Did the same using Marshall stuff through the 6L6 Spider Valve. I will say that the difference wasn't as stark with Marshall stuff going through the 6L6's as the aforementioned was.

That said as a former owner of a 2203 JCM800 the Brit 2204 and 2204 MOD sound way closer to that 2203 I had than any modeler I have chased that tone with. I know they are different amps IRL but it gets so damn close using the DSL Marshall to power the 2204 amps in Helix. Also have owned quite a few Mesa amps.

Gotta be something to this and maybe @James Freeman or someone more tech savvy than I with amps and modeling could explain it better.

By the way this was tested at med/large gig type of volumes. Averaged 98-100db @10ft.

Are you running "preamp only" with the Helix or "full amp"?

 

[James Freeman]

The tone difference between 6L6, EL34 and Transformers in the same amp is not very big until they are really cranked.
The bigger difference between tube amps with the 'standard' class AB topology (DSL & Spider Valve) comes from the power amp tuning like amount of negative feedback, Presence & Resonance cap values and the recovery stage/s after the FX loop.
In my opinion and experience that is.

 

[Bruce]

Modelers outside of any amplification are designed to sound like what an amp sounds like thru a range of mics and preamp signal chains. That sound is a bit different than using a power amp and a guitar speaker cab in a room. Thats why loading down a head and using the same IR or sending a modeler out thru the same mic/cab combo will sound nearly identical if its a good model. Those situations are truly putting both mediums on even ground. When running your modeler thru a power amp/ speaker cab, what you’re changing is the monitoring, not the end result (assuming you’re ultimately sticking a mic in front of the speaker for FOH). You have to use monitoring that inspires and works for you in the end, or you have to be willing to make some compromises for ease of setup/use.

 

[Bob Zaod]

Are you running "preamp only" with the Helix or "full amp"?

Full amp always. I have tried pre-amp only and just can't make myself like it. To me pre-amps sound thin and weak. All of them.

 

[Bob Zaod]

Modelers outside of any amplification are designed to sound like what an amp sounds like thru a range of mics and preamp signal chains. That sound is a bit different than using a power amp and a guitar speaker cab in a room. Thats why loading down a head and using the same IR or sending a modeler out thru the same mic/cab combo will sound nearly identical if its a good model. Those situations are truly putting both mediums on even ground. When running your modeler thru a power amp/ speaker cab, what you’re changing is the monitoring, not the end result (assuming you’re ultimately sticking a mic in front of the speaker for FOH). You have to use monitoring that inspires and works for you in the end, or you have to be willing to make some compromises for ease of setup/use.

Yeah I have all but abandoned going direct lately. At least with my smaller PA system which is what I use 90% of the time. I tried a bunch of different mics and blending a 906 and a 57 at tolerable amp volume (95db @10ft) in my opinion was so much better than running XLR to PA and 1/4" to amp return.

Recording is a whole different ball of wax. The new cabs in Helix are fantastic for recording and that's pretty much my intended use for going direct from here on out. I mean sure there will be times where I will just grab my Helix LT for me and Headrush MX5 for the bass player but my preference will always be to have a tube amp on stage with me.

 

[Bruce]

Yeah I have all but abandoned going direct lately. At least with my smaller PA system which is what I use 90% of the time. I tried a bunch of different mics and blending a 906 and a 57 at tolerable amp volume (95db @10ft) in my opinion was so much better than running XLR to PA and 1/4" to amp return.

Recording is a whole different ball of wax. The new cabs in Helix are fantastic for recording and that's pretty much my intended use for going direct from here on out. I mean sure there will be times where I will just grab my Helix LT for me and Headrush MX5 for the bass player but my preference will always be to have a tube amp on stage with me.

If the downsides of bringing out more gear aren't overshadowing the upside in your sound, by all means do what works. At the end of the day having a successful gig is whats important. For me, it comes down usually to volume. I would bring out amps blowing past my knees at low volumes and bad micing and that would sound horrible. The modeler in the wedge barely audible would sound bad to me, too. I need to hear the tone at least in the mix, not under it in order to have a good night. Found it didn't really matter to me if it was a modeler or a 4x12, as long as I was hearing it properly.

 

[Elric]

Congratulations you have discovered “Amp in the Room”

 

[Bob Zaod]

If the downsides of bringing out more gear aren't overshadowing the upside in your sound, by all means do what works. At the end of the day having a successful gig is whats important. For me, it comes down usually to volume. I would bring out amps blowing past my knees at low volumes and bad micing and that would sound horrible. The modeler in the wedge barely audible would sound bad to me, too. I need to hear the tone at least in the mix, not under it in order to have a good night. Found it didn't really matter to me if it was a modeler or a 4x12, as long as I was hearing it properly.

For a couple years I didn't have anyone to help me lug stuff. Now that I do it's nice to be able to bring some heavy stuff if I want. I have a younger brother-in law and a teenage nephew who live near me now and help any time I ask. Of course I buy them pizza and throw em a few bucks but they always try to refuse. It's nice to have roadies.

 

[GuitarDave]

Yeah I have all but abandoned going direct lately. At least with my smaller PA system which is what I use 90% of the time. I tried a bunch of different mics and blending a 906 and a 57 at tolerable amp volume (95db @10ft) in my opinion was so much better than running XLR to PA and 1/4" to amp return.

Recording is a whole different ball of wax. The new cabs in Helix are fantastic for recording and that's pretty much my intended use for going direct from here on out. I mean sure there will be times where I will just grab my Helix LT for me and Headrush MX5 for the bass player but my preference will always be to have a tube amp on stage with me.

The smaller gigs, with live drums and other stage amps it's just easier to stick with an actual amp.

Bigger gigs, better PA monitoring (more than one shared wedge for everything), better techs all are what makes running direct work well. It's really no different than taking a small amp and close micing it.

IEMs are fine if you have your act together...but most bands I know aren't using them.

 

[GuitarDave]

If the downsides of bringing out more gear aren't overshadowing the upside in your sound, by all means do what works. At the end of the day having a successful gig is whats important. For me, it comes down usually to volume. I would bring out amps blowing past my knees at low volumes and bad micing and that would sound horrible. The modeler in the wedge barely audible would sound bad to me, too. I need to hear the tone at least in the mix, not under it in order to have a good night. Found it didn't really matter to me if it was a modeler or a 4x12, as long as I was hearing it properly.

Yup...the most important thing about my "sound" is the ability to consistently fit the mix both from a volume and a frequency/tone perspective.

I've been using a tilt-back stand for years...it's nuts to have the amp shooting past your knees.

Everyone in the band really wants a "more me" type of mix where you can hear yourself in context to the rest of the band, but hear yourself just a little bit louder so you can hear subtleties in your performance.

 

[Bob Zaod]

The smaller gigs, with live drums and other stage amps it's just easier to stick with an actual amp.

Bigger gigs, better PA monitoring (more than one shared wedge for everything), better techs all are what makes running direct work well. It's really no different than taking a small amp and close micing it.

IEMs are fine if you have your act together...but most bands I know aren't using them.

We have the equipment and ability to go IEM's when we need to. We spent some time getting it all tweaked for when we get into some local Casino's. Did a few gigs with them and it worked good. It's really the only gig around here that pretty much requires a silent stage, but we are prepared for it.

 

[dk_ace]

I think that probably says more about the two particular power amp circuits you were plugging into via the effects returns than it does the tube types they used. The tonal difference between clean power tube types is very subtle.

D