All the Krazy Kahler news!

[Eagle]

So it should be monumentally easy to provide evidence that one sounds better or at least different than another and yet I've never seen anyone provide any when asked, all they provide is plausible mechainisms for why it COULD sound different, but never anything but personal testimony that is DOES sound different.

This is the case in every single MLM, quack medical claim or religion. It is Ken Hamm asking Bill Nye "were you there?"

Personal testimony is worthless as evidence, see the McGurk effect for example



Your description of the Kahler's issues seem plausible. But my objection was pretty general and there was another thread where I guess EVH claimed he could hear the bent tremolo plate sounds better than a machined or forged one? And again, like tone wood, magical mic preamps or null tests, nobody ever provides any actual evidence that the phenomenon even exists aside from personal testimony

Why do you think it is that these claims always result in insults, personal experience or gaslighting when challenged, yet when scientific claims are challenged, they are defended with reason instead?

Do you really need me to prove 2+2 is 4???? As for Ed saying he preferred the sound of a bent baseplate over a forged one ;They do sound slightly different I like both and don't really have a preference but they are different. I have provided you with the reason the design is fundamentally flawed, go and test it yourself . If I had the recordings of guitars that were ruined by Kahler installations and what they sounded like after I removed them I would provide them . Dave Gilmour had a flat mount on the Black strat for a brief while but took it off when he realised it's problems .
If you need proof of the 2+2=4 try this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica

 

[Eagle]

Oh wow forgot the Parker! Cool to see it in this thread. https://flyclone.com/_files/Guides/Fly_Vibrato_Guide.pdf

Quite some issues with that one too.

 

[Eagle]

Oh and your incorrect statement about the Steeler intonation and fit?

 

[Sascha Franck]

And again, like tone wood, magical mic preamps or null tests, nobody ever provides any actual evidence that the phenomenon even exists aside from personal testimony

Maybe we could ask Jim Lil to do a vibrato system "where did my tone go to?" video.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Oh and your incorrect statement about the Steeler intonation and fit?

It wasn't incorrect. The OG steeler had both the saddle lock down screw like the floyd and an intonation screw.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Do you really need me to prove 2+2 is 4???? As for Ed saying he preferred the sound of a bent baseplate over a forged one ;They do sound slightly different I like both and don't really have a preference but they are different. I have provided you with the reason the design is fundamentally flawed, go and test it yourself . If I had the recordings of guitars that were ruined by Kahler installations and what they sounded like after I removed them I would provide them . Dave Gilmour had a flat mount on the Black strat for a brief while but took it off when he realised it's problems .
If you need proof of the 2+2=4 try this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica

Another dodge.

Again, when people have claims they need to provide the evidence, not just insult the person who objects to their claim

 

[Eagle]

It wasn't incorrect. The OG steeler had both the saddle lock down screw like the floyd and an intonation screw.

No it doesn’t.

I’ve fitted at least a hundred of these back in the day and many more OFRs . There is no intonation screw on them. That is actually on the Spyder ( or whatever silly spelling they used.)

 

[Eagle]

Another dodge.

Again, when people have claims they need to provide the evidence, not just insult the person who objects to their claim

It’s not a claim.

 

[Eagle]

Another dodge.

Again, when people have claims they need to provide the evidence, not just insult the person who objects to their claim

I didn’t keep records but as I suggested you can do your own experiments or understand the details of the design.

 

[unix-guy]

WTF?!?

Some background (skip if you want): Ever since I sold my Steinberger (maintainance trouble, very narrow string spacing at the bridge, not too great sounding), I missed that TransTrem's locking option sooo much. I thought it was the bees knees, adressing so many issues at once (loss of sustain, "wobbly" attack, string breakage, double bends), so I tried everything I could find, but I always thought there'd only been the Wilkinson approach (which was pathetic on so many levels I almost considered it a cynical joke) and the Steinberger licensed vibrato from Hohner, which wasn't as much of a joke but still way, way bad enough to never even remotely consider it.
I even went as far as to go on the nerves of some (even kinda wellknown) local luthiers, because I really wanted such a thing to exist. Just that they, even as experienced as they were, didn't seem to fully understand what IMO is the most crucial thing (that Steinberger got right straight from the start), namely that you *must* be able to first lock the unit to tune up and then adjust vibrato spring tension to ensure locked and free floating zero position were identical.
Fwiw, that was something impossible with the Wilkinson as it offered no way to adjust spring tension, others than the typical way of taking the backplate off and adjust the spring clamp screws. Not only that this wasn't too reliable to start with (I mean, we're talking wood screws vs. super sensible tuning here...), as the backplate also hold the lock for the tremolo arm, you could never compare the floating zero position to the fixed one without screwing the backplate back on. Rinse and repeat obviously included. You may now understand how much of a bad joke that was...

So, long story made short:
- How is Kahler dealing with spring tension adjustment? Doesn't look there's anything specific to deal with it.
- Are there any reports about the accuracy of that lock so far? It's a really delicate thing and you were instantly noticing anything to become even just ever so slightly "wobbly" on the Steinberger (which was also why it was so tough to maintain because that lock was wearing out comparatively quickly, I used up 3 of them in, well, maybe 3-4 years).

Sophia terms have as large thumb wheel mechanism on the block for adjusting the springs. They even make them for some other tremolos.

I have no experience with them but it's an interesting idea.

@Eagle - have any thoughts on those?

 

[Eagle]

Sophia terms have as large thumb wheel mechanism on the block for adjusting the springs. They even make them for some other tremolos.

I have no experience with them but it's an interesting idea.

@Eagle - have any thoughts on those?

Having a lot of unnecessary moving parts on the trem is not a good idea unless you really need the function to be available on the fly. If it had a lock mechanism there would be a point but without it it just better to use the claw and screws. Even the Schaller claw that adjusts with a hex key is detrimental.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Having a lot of unnecessary moving parts on the trem is not a good idea unless you really need the function to be available on the fly. If it had a lock mechanism there would be a point but without it it just better to use the claw and screws. Even the Schaller claw that adjusts with a hex key is detrimental.

I'm absolutely fine with things as they are for any standard floating vibrato, too. But, just as you say, things are quite different once you enter the world of balancing a position locking system. As said, the way Wilkinson got that completely wrong is almost comical (especially given that their vibratos are pretty decent).

 

[State of Epicicity]

Years ago I was deciding whether or not to go back to a trem, and if so, which one. I was telling my wife about it, that I wanted either a Kahler, which I had never played at that point, or a Floyd, but I wasn't sure about the tone. She asked, "well, who plays a Kahler, and who plays a Floyd, and how good are their tones?" That was clarifying, because I instantly thought of Eddie Van Halen and a ton of guys who have proven great tone with a Floyd (or Floyd style) trem, and on the other hand, I thought Painkiller by Judas Priest, an album I love with blistering lead work by Glenn Tipton on a Kahler cam, but whose tones I would never want. There's the second Sanctuary album, with its weird very gainy tone too, and I thought maybe the only way to fight the tone suck on a Kahler cam is to put it through ungodly gain, and not in a cool way.

 

[pipelineaudio]

So you decide the sound of a tremolo by the output of two different recording engineers in two different recording studios and somehow that's the sound of the tremolo, not the playing, writing, amplifier, speaker, microphones, mic placement, number of mics, phasing of the mics, the eq and/or compression on the way in, the eq and compression and reverb in the mix, the mastering, etc etc etc....somehow, its the sound of a bent piece of metal.

 

[Eagle]

So you decide the sound of a tremolo by the output of two different recording engineers in two different recording studios and somehow that's the sound of the tremolo, not the playing, writing, amplifier, speaker, microphones, mic placement, number of mics, phasing of the mics, the eq and/or compression on the way in, the eq and compression and reverb in the mix, the mastering, etc etc etc....somehow, its the sound of a bent piece of metal.

No it starts with the acoustic tone of the guitar. You don’t fix fundamental things long after the fact. Oh where are the intonation screws on the picture of the Steeler that you have never seen?

 

[State of Epicicity]

So you decide the sound of a tremolo by the output of two different recording engineers in two different recording studios and somehow that's the sound of the tremolo, not the playing, writing, amplifier, speaker, microphones, mic placement, number of mics, phasing of the mics, the eq and/or compression on the way in, the eq and compression and reverb in the mix, the mastering, etc etc etc....somehow, its the sound of a bent piece of metal.

The idea is to get a consensus of the common traits of good tone. I still keep my eyes open when I see a music video from the 80s to see if anyone with a Kahler cam has great tone, because, short recessing one, raising the saddles too high to stay in tune with the bar, and never using the bar, I don't know how anyone would get a strong tone with one.

We all realize there are so many variables in a recording, but just going by that simple deduction you can start with this: if you many different players getting great tone using a piece of gear, you know that gear at least does not preclude you from getting great tone yourself. I'm sure you could name a bunch of Floyd style players who have great tone; I'm still wondering about the Kahler cam!

I pined after a Kahler cam for years, assuming that the lack of knife edges would yield great tuning stability and great tone, but I had no idea it required a shallow break angle.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Given that the Painkiller solo and the whole song is still so influential after all these years, I'd say that's some sort of great tone whatever that means.

I am scratching my head to think of someone on a cam kahler that would traditionally be considered "great tone" but I think most of the claptonians would say the same thing about any floyd player as well.

There were some plausible suggestions about how these things could dampen strings or hurt sustain, but I did a few Flotsam and jetsam Albums and if sustain were ANY issue at all from the cam style Kahler, the guitars would have immediately gone in the dumpster. I'm trying to think of anyone who needs notes to last longer while wildly flailing on the tremolo bar...Maybe Wiley Arnett from Sacred Reich, but I think he was playing cam style kahlers at some point as well.

I could see sustain being hurt by not enough pressure on the saddles, but of all things that can change frequency or harmonic content, I don't really see anything plausible on a tremolo...the famous balsa wood chopstick bridge tests pretty much put the nails in the coffin that rigidity of the saddles has any effect on an electric guitar's electrical output harmonics (and really, given how pickups actually work its not ALL that surprising, but still had to be confirmed)

What happenes with those graphtec saddles? Do they kill sustain? I see people swearing by titanium floyds...somehow both mass and lack of mass are claimed to help sustain...and crazily the same people swearing by giant brass blocks say titanium is even better!

This is why claims like these need evidence, not just anecdotes

 

[State of Epicicity]

Given that the Painkiller solo and the whole song is still so influential after all these years, I'd say that's some sort of great tone whatever that means.

I am scratching my head to think of someone on a cam kahler that would traditionally be considered "great tone" but I think most of the claptonians would say the same thing about any floyd player as well.

There were some plausible suggestions about how these things could dampen strings or hurt sustain, but I did a few Flotsam and jetsam Albums and if sustain were ANY issue at all from the cam style Kahler, the guitars would have immediately gone in the dumpster. I'm trying to think of anyone who needs notes to last longer while wildly flailing on the tremolo bar...Maybe Wiley Arnett from Sacred Reich, but I think he was playing cam style kahlers at some point as well.

I could see sustain being hurt by not enough pressure on the saddles, but of all things that can change frequency or harmonic content, I don't really see anything plausible on a tremolo...the famous balsa wood chopstick bridge tests pretty much put the nails in the coffin that rigidity of the saddles has any effect on an electric guitar's electrical output harmonics (and really, given how pickups actually work its not ALL that surprising, but still had to be confirmed)

What happenes with those graphtec saddles? Do they kill sustain? I see people swearing by titanium floyds...somehow both mass and lack of mass are claimed to help sustain...and crazily the same people swearing by giant brass blocks say titanium is even better!

This is why claims like these need evidence, not just anecdotes

To me, what you're calling anecdotes are evidence. You're writing as if no one can make a claim about tone without forensic tests set up to a standard you approve of. If that's the case, I urge you to do that yourself. From my understanding, there hasn't been much in the way of rigorous scientific comparisons in guitar; the whole thing about tone is about the impression it makes on you. Also, if the science is so goddamn important to you, what are you doing talking on a forum? Start a think tank, get fudning, hire the scholars and researchers you deem worth, buy every piece of gear, and put up your charts comparing the aspects you deem worthy, and we'll all bathe in the light of wisdom, backed by your unflinching rigor, Dude!

Again, this is about impressions, and guitar forums are places where we lowly troglodyte players can share our impressions to try to help one another, without trying to place every impression out of reach by putting unnecessary standards on them.

 

[Sleezy E]

Fun thread, would read again.

 

[pipelineaudio]

anecdotes aren’t evidence. That’s not my opinion. It’s just fact

The rest is textbook fallacious appeal to emotion. Same thing I predict happens anytime a claim presented without evidence is challenged

And without fail the prediction comes true.

Again nothing to do with my feelings or opinion just plain fact.

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