All the Krazy Kahler news!

[pipelineaudio]

They just knocked off Bill Edwards' design from what I can tell, but used lower quality materials.

Weird, wasn't the Kahler first? Does the Bill Edwards one fit in a regular locknut slot, I don;t think the Kahler does

 

[laxu]

Kahler did, they made the pro nut or whatever, locking with levers you can flip instead of needing an allen wrench

Tried to google it and it seems to install behind a regular nut instead? Or is there a version that fits where a Floyd Rose nut would go.

Bill Edwards still makes his toolless locking nut:

Bill Edwards Guitar Products

Yeah I've seen this once before. The price (plus shipping, taxes) has always put me off from trying one. Anyone used it?

 

[pipelineaudio]

Whoa the floyd nut conversion kit from Bill Edwards looks perfect. I wish they made a seven string version

 

[pipelineaudio]

I just emailed Bill Edwards to see if a 7 string version of the floyd conversion kit is possible

 

[State of Epicicity]

Weird, wasn't the Kahler first? Does the Bill Edwards one fit in a regular locknut slot, I don;t think the Kahler does

I talked with Bill a bunch, and he told me his was first!

Yeah I've seen this once before. The price (plus shipping, taxes) has always put me off from trying one. Anyone used it?

I bought one, and I really liked it, but I installed it to a piece of dogshit guitar, a 2008 Gibson Shred V that had a Kahler cam trem that would never ever ever ever stay in tune. The one thing I would never do is solder the ends of the strings; I just was too flaming mad to do that. So I can't say if the nut was a problem or not, but I found it a cool design and easy to use. The setup was interesting and different than I expected, but once I got the hang of it, I liked it. When I got rid of that guitar and had a priest come in to bless the apartment of all the evil energy it had spewed, it still had the Bill Edwards nut on it. I'd totally try it again, but I wouldn't give a 100% endorsement until I tried it with a Floyd style!

This was years ago that I ordered mine, but Bill was cool and responsive. I talked to him a bunch over the phone. I wouldn't hesitate to order from him again.

 

[State of Epicicity]

Oh, and I installed the behind the nut one when I did it, behind a graphtech nut, so there could've been a lot behind my piece of shit guitar not ever ever ever returning to zero. I feel like a Floyd nut replacement from him would be perfect.

 

[Eagle]

That's the Spyder, the one nobody likes



Kahler did, they made the pro nut or whatever, locking with levers you can flip instead of needing an allen wrench



Kahler did on the Steeler with the intonation screw built into the saddles so you could move the saddles similar to how you would on a regular fender bridge


The Steeler fits in a regular floyd rose route, the Spyder does not exactly.

There is no intonation screw on the Steeler, you unbolt the saddle and slide it same as a Floyd.
It doesn’t have the same footprint as a Floyd either. It may fit in to some recess routes but it’s not offset to the side with the bar.

 

[Eagle]

That's not even close to approaching evidence

If you had ever tried it you wouldn’t say this. I could go in to detail about it but are you really needing an explanation for why the Kahler standard cam design is a tone suck?

 

[pipelineaudio]

If you had ever tried it you wouldn’t say this. I could go in to detail about it but are you really needing an explanation for why the Kahler standard cam design is a tone suck?

That's typical anti science language. Personal testimony is NOT ever evidence...this is why people believe in tone wood and magical mic preamps. Its certainly not evidence. It is textbook science denial

Evidence is evidence. Not anecdote and certainly not personal testimony

 

[State of Epicicity]

Well, I can tell you from a nightmare that lasted way too long that the Kahler cam trem was an insane tone suck. One thing I realized, that I learned from Kahler tech support and old forum threads, is that the saddles on those things need a shallow break angle to have a chance to stay in tune. Here's the problem: you recess the trem to raise the break angle, and it starts to sound way better, but it cannot stay in tune, so you lower the saddles, creating an ever shallower break angle, and as you do that the guitar stays in tune better and better, but by the time you've got it to stay in tune at all, there's no sustain, and the tone is weak as hell and just anemic and thin.

I would get it to stay in tune for dives, after enormous patience and effort, then it would go out of tune if I bent a string, etc. Nightmare. Hell.

I eventually replaced it with a Hipshot Tone-a-matic, and the guitar sounded incredible.

 

[Eagle]

That's typical anti science language. Personal testimony is NOT ever evidence...this is why people believe in tone wood and magical mic preamps. Its certainly not evidence. It is textbook science denial

Evidence is evidence. Not anecdote and certainly not personal testimony

There is nothing anti science about me but I was hoping not to have to explain how a wheel works and how round is quite a good shape for one.
If you have a decent angle over the roller it sounds fine as long as you don’t use it but the moment you press down on the trem it introduces new string length in to the equation. This new not vibrating string then uses existing string energy to start it moving. On the other side of this is if you pull up you mute vibrating string by pulling it back through a roller. Now if you put both of those together ( vibrato ) you have a very effective string damper. Now add the fact that most Kahler flat mounted trems don’t have anything like enough angle over the roller.
The whole design is flawed on paper before you even get to a comparison.
The kahler is essentially a refined bigsby.

 

[Eagle]

Tried to google it and it seems to install behind a regular nut instead? Or is there a version that fits where a Floyd Rose nut would go.


Yeah I've seen this once before. The price (plus shipping, taxes) has always put me off from trying one. Anyone used it?

The original Bill Edwards doesn’t work well because it needs the cam to close at least 4/5 but only allows half turns of the screw that holds the cam. Some of the new
models have fixed this but the still put a huge amount of tension on a tiny cam axle. IME these designs either fail completely or fail to clamp the string tightly enough. It is far better to just have a hex wrench holder on the back of the headstock.

 

[Eagle]

Weird, wasn't the Kahler first? Does the Bill Edwards one fit in a regular locknut slot, I don;t think the Kahler does

The Edwards was first but the Kahler worked better because it separated the cam from the overall tension screw.

 

[OrganicZed]

Bill Edwards still makes his toolless locking nut:

Bill Edwards Guitar Products

I bought the BELN Floyd conversion kit last month. Sadly, it did not work on my GOTOH 1996t equipped guitar.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Autolatch was a device that turned the bridge into a fixed bridge if you pointed the tremolo arm down. Wilkinson sort of did a similar thing a decade later but it didn't work so well as it relied on plastic

WTF?!?

Some background (skip if you want): Ever since I sold my Steinberger (maintainance trouble, very narrow string spacing at the bridge, not too great sounding), I missed that TransTrem's locking option sooo much. I thought it was the bees knees, adressing so many issues at once (loss of sustain, "wobbly" attack, string breakage, double bends), so I tried everything I could find, but I always thought there'd only been the Wilkinson approach (which was pathetic on so many levels I almost considered it a cynical joke) and the Steinberger licensed vibrato from Hohner, which wasn't as much of a joke but still way, way bad enough to never even remotely consider it.
I even went as far as to go on the nerves of some (even kinda wellknown) local luthiers, because I really wanted such a thing to exist. Just that they, even as experienced as they were, didn't seem to fully understand what IMO is the most crucial thing (that Steinberger got right straight from the start), namely that you *must* be able to first lock the unit to tune up and then adjust vibrato spring tension to ensure locked and free floating zero position were identical.
Fwiw, that was something impossible with the Wilkinson as it offered no way to adjust spring tension, others than the typical way of taking the backplate off and adjust the spring clamp screws. Not only that this wasn't too reliable to start with (I mean, we're talking wood screws vs. super sensible tuning here...), as the backplate also hold the lock for the tremolo arm, you could never compare the floating zero position to the fixed one without screwing the backplate back on. Rinse and repeat obviously included. You may now understand how much of a bad joke that was...

So, long story made short:
- How is Kahler dealing with spring tension adjustment? Doesn't look there's anything specific to deal with it.
- Are there any reports about the accuracy of that lock so far? It's a really delicate thing and you were instantly noticing anything to become even just ever so slightly "wobbly" on the Steinberger (which was also why it was so tough to maintain because that lock was wearing out comparatively quickly, I used up 3 of them in, well, maybe 3-4 years).

 

[Eagle]

WTF?!?

Some background (skip if you want): Ever since I sold my Steinberger (maintainance trouble, very narrow string spacing at the bridge, not too great sounding), I missed that TransTrem's locking option sooo much. I thought it was the bees knees, adressing so many issues at once (loss of sustain, "wobbly" attack, string breakage, double bends), so I tried everything I could find, but I always thought there'd only been the Wilkinson approach (which was pathetic on so many levels I almost considered it a cynical joke) and the Steinberger licensed vibrato from Hohner, which wasn't as much of a joke but still way, way bad enough to never even remotely consider it.
I even went as far as to go on the nerves of some (even kinda wellknown) local luthiers, because I really wanted such a thing to exist. Just that they, even as experienced as they were, didn't seem to fully understand what IMO is the most crucial thing (that Steinberger got right straight from the start), namely that you *must* be able to first lock the unit to tune up and then adjust vibrato spring tension to ensure locked and free floating zero position were identical.
Fwiw, that was something impossible with the Wilkinson as it offered no way to adjust spring tension, others than the typical way of taking the backplate off and adjust the spring clamp screws. Not only that this wasn't too reliable to start with (I mean, we're talking wood screws vs. super sensible tuning here...), as the backplate also hold the lock for the tremolo arm, you could never compare the floating zero position to the fixed one without screwing the backplate back on. Rinse and repeat obviously included. You may now understand how much of a bad joke that was...

So, long story made short:
- How is Kahler dealing with spring tension adjustment? Doesn't look there's anything specific to deal with it.
- Are there any reports about the accuracy of that lock so far? It's a really delicate thing and you were instantly noticing anything to become even just ever so slightly "wobbly" on the Steinberger (which was also why it was so tough to maintain because that lock was wearing out comparatively quickly, I used up 3 of them in, well, maybe 3-4 years).

On the auto latch you can reset the lock point just by a lever on the back so if the equilibrium moves you just lock the new position with no tools quickly, but your right about the lack of a spring adjuster. The Jam trem had this and was better. The auto latch also tends to have play in it but with maintenance you can get rid of most of it. On the TT2 (I assume it was a 2) did you destroy the pin or the cam on the lock because they are both very tough hardened steel parts?

 

[mbenigni]

I even went as far as to go on the nerves of some (even kinda wellknown) local luthiers, because I really wanted such a thing to exist. Just that they, even as experienced as they were, didn't seem to fully understand what IMO is the most crucial thing (that Steinberger got right straight from the start), namely that you *must* be able to first lock the unit to tune up and then adjust vibrato spring tension to ensure locked and free floating zero position were identical.
Fwiw, that was something impossible with the Wilkinson as it offered no way to adjust spring tension, others than the typical way of taking the backplate off and adjust the spring clamp screws. Not only that this wasn't too reliable to start with (I mean, we're talking wood screws vs. super sensible tuning here...), as the backplate also hold the lock for the tremolo arm, you could never compare the floating zero position to the fixed one without screwing the backplate back on. Rinse and repeat obviously included. You may now understand how much of a bad joke that was...

What's your take on the original ("unrefined") Parker Fly with its through-body trem spring adjustment wheel? (That design also has a three position switch in the back for fixed/ dive/ float, but nothing you could reasonably engage/ disengage in the middle of a solo.)

 

[Sascha Franck]

did you destroy the pin or the cam on the lock because they are both very tough hardened steel parts?

I don't clearly remember (because fortunately I got both of then in tandem each time), I think the pin was sort of whacky when I bought it already, second time it was the pin again and the 3rd time I was only exchanging it because the 2nd pin/cam was used already and never *that* tight to start with).
Anyhow, not sure whether it was a TT2 even, bought the guitar used in 1992. And I was actually wondering about the locking mechanism to wear out so quickly.

What's your take on the original ("unrefined") Parker Fly with its through-body trem spring adjustment wheel?

Oh, forgot about that. Never owned a Parker but played some of friends (and hated them, perhaps the reason for not thinking about them) - that wheel IMO is just what the doctor ordered (pretty similar to the Steinberger approach), but unfortunately not exactly an aftermarket solution for an existing guitar.
I could imagine some solutions here, the easiest possibly being to have a second spring clamp connected to the first (also non-original) one via proper machine screws, plus an additional access point in the backplate - obviously the latter would be less elegant than a wheel you can alwaya access, but from my experience with the Steinberger, it was only required to adjust the spring tension a) when changing strings and b) occassionally inbetween - but never like inmidst a gig or so. Once properly adjusted, in case you were using decent strings, it usually kept the balance over the lifespan of a set of strings just fine.

 

[pipelineaudio]

There is nothing anti science about me but I was hoping not to have to explain how a wheel works and how round is quite a good shape for one.
If you have a decent angle over the roller it sounds fine as long as you don’t use it but the moment you press down on the trem it introduces new string length in to the equation. This new not vibrating string then uses existing string energy to start it moving. On the other side of this is if you pull up you mute vibrating string by pulling it back through a roller. Now if you put both of those together ( vibrato ) you have a very effective string damper. Now add the fact that most Kahler flat mounted trems don’t have anything like enough angle over the roller.
The whole design is flawed on paper before you even get to a comparison.
The kahler is essentially a refined bigsby.

So it should be monumentally easy to provide evidence that one sounds better or at least different than another and yet I've never seen anyone provide any when asked, all they provide is plausible mechainisms for why it COULD sound different, but never anything but personal testimony that is DOES sound different.

This is the case in every single MLM, quack medical claim or religion. It is Ken Hamm asking Bill Nye "were you there?"

Personal testimony is worthless as evidence, see the McGurk effect for example



Your description of the Kahler's issues seem plausible. But my objection was pretty general and there was another thread where I guess EVH claimed he could hear the bent tremolo plate sounds better than a machined or forged one? And again, like tone wood, magical mic preamps or null tests, nobody ever provides any actual evidence that the phenomenon even exists aside from personal testimony

Why do you think it is that these claims always result in insults, personal experience or gaslighting when challenged, yet when scientific claims are challenged, they are defended with reason instead?

 

[pipelineaudio]

Oh wow forgot the Parker! Cool to see it in this thread. https://flyclone.com/_files/Guides/Fly_Vibrato_Guide.pdf