Will this be an improvement over Katana Power Amp In? (PA option for FM9)

[TubeStack]

Katana IS hyped AF and what gives it what people seem to like about it.

I thought the PAI was possibly bypassing any hyped elements and giving you the straight PA, but I guess not.

 

[TubeStack]

So, I had a blast with the FM9 + Stealth Pro setup last night at practice. Sounded and felt amazing and was pretty jaw-dropping overall. I purposely didn't tell the bass player and drummer and they had no idea. (I had it dialed in to sound remarkably close to my Electra Dyne.) They couldn't believe it when I did tell them, about an hour into the practice.

FM9 - PVH 6160 Block Crunch > ISP SP in bridged 180W mode - 8ohm > Mesa Traditional 4x12

Boosting with the Fractal Blues OD or SD1.

The Stealth Pro puts out an insane amount of power for it's size and weight - it's truly remarkable! And it sounds great, nice and full and not abrasive or spiky at all, fills the room nicely. As a reference, it felt roughly like cranking a 50W tube amp, in terms of headroom, volume and "oomph".

I actually used it for the whole practice and did not jump ship back to the Dyne, which for me is saying something!

 

[Alex Kenivel]

made me realize the Katana has hyped low end and spiky highs

Huh. Makes sense I guess. I like the effects return with some high/low shelving over the poweramp input

 

[TubeStack]

Boosting with the Fractal Blues OD or SD1.

Sorry, that should be Timothy Down or SD1, forgot I had switched out the Blues OD (which is also a great boost, love Fractal drives).

 

[bdrepko]

Not sure how everyone feels, but I dont want a speaker cable going from my pedalboard at the front of the stage to a speaker cab behind me.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

Not sure how everyone feels, but I dont want a speaker cable going from my pedalboard at the front of the stage to a speaker cab behind me.

I feel the same way. Amp on top of cab like Satan intended!

 

[TubeStack]

Not sure how everyone feels, but I dont want a speaker cable going from my pedalboard at the front of the stage to a speaker cab behind me.

I feel the same way. Amp on top of cab like Satan intended!

Yes, totally agree.

 

[jellodog]

Not sure how everyone feels, but I dont want a speaker cable going from my pedalboard at the front of the stage to a speaker cab behind me.

Alternative viewpoint:

Great thing about running a speaker cable from a pedalboard amp is that because of the higher voltage, you can have a reasonably long cable run without any significant loss of tone.

I used to enjoy that with my Quilter Superblock.

 

[TubeStack]

Alternative viewpoint:

Great thing about running a speaker cable from a pedalboard amp is that because of the higher voltage, you can have a reasonably long cable run without any significant loss of tone.

I used to enjoy that with my Quilter Superblock.

Yes, good point.

I think because of decades of tube amps and paranoia about the speaker cable accidently coming out, amp not having a load, etc, it makes me nervous even though I know it doesn't matter with SS.

But also a speaker cable running across a floor at a gig seems at risk of popping it out with my foot and losing all sound, right before my big War Pigs solo, ultimate disaster.

 

[TubeStack]

As an update on the ISP SP: I am still really enjoying it, but am now flip-flopping between it and going back to my Dyne, as was expected .

I actually went back to the Dyne and 4cm FM9 about three days after having such a great time with the ISP at practice. There really is no doubt that it is by FAR the best-sounding and feeling setup. However, last night I got the FM9 Friedman BE100 v3 model going with the ISP and had it sounding very good. too. If I had to use a number, I'd say the FM9+ISP can sound about 75-80, maybe 80-85% as good as the Dyne through the same cab (Mesa Recto Horizontal 2x12).

Is that enough to warrant switching to the ISP and FM9 completely? I don't know... and I know a lot of you D&M guys have been through this 100 times (and most of you seem back to using tube amps? ) I also know it doesn't have to be all one or the other, but I seem to be that kind of guy. I really enjoy drinking the kool aid on something and going all-in for a while, it seems. But the FM9 and ISP does sound F-ing AMAZING and if I had never played the Dyne (or other 100W tube amps) I'd probably think the FM9 was the best thing I've ever heard.

However, I started this thread more about the ISP as a power amp option for modellers, and maybe shouldn't take it in the toobz vs digital/SS direction for the millionth time.

In some ways, it really comes down to the difference between bringing the 43 lb Dyne head (which is a pretty great weight for a 90W Mesa beast, all things considered) and a 4cm snake + Mic No Mo vs bringing the 1.2 lb ISP and a single TS cable + XLR cable for FOH.


Anyway, in general, if you can deal with the bizarre power supply, which I gotta be honest isn't bothering me at all, I can highly recommend the ISP Stealth Pro as a 180W, Class A/B, 8 ohm option. Whole thing fits easily in my gig bag and is incredibly light and small, overall, and sounds really great. I am definitely keeping it as at least a backup for my Dyne (and probably selling the Katana 100).

 

[JT]

As an update on the ISP SP: I am still really enjoying it, but am now flip-flopping between it and going back to my Dyne, as was expected .

I actually went back to the Dyne and 4cm FM9 about three days after having such a great time with the ISP at practice. There really is no doubt that it is by FAR the best-sounding and feeling setup. However, last night I got the FM9 Friedman BE100 v3 model going with the ISP and had it sounding very good. too. If I had to use a number, I'd say the FM9+ISP can sound about 75-80, maybe 80-85% as good as the Dyne through the same cab (Mesa Recto Horizontal 2x12).

Is that enough to warrant switching to the ISP and FM9 completely? I don't know... and I know a lot of you D&M guys have been through this 100 times (and most of you seem back to using tube amps? ) I also know it doesn't have to be all one or the other, but I seem to be that kind of guy. I really enjoy drinking the kool aid on something and going all-in for a while, it seems. But the FM9 and ISP does sound F-ing AMAZING and if I had never played the Dyne (or other 100W tube amps) I'd probably think the FM9 was the best thing I've ever heard.

However, I started this thread more about the ISP as a power amp option for modellers, and maybe shouldn't take it in the toobz vs digital/SS direction for the millionth time.

In some ways, it really comes down to the difference between bringing the 43 lb Dyne head (which is a pretty great weight for a 90W Mesa beast, all things considered) and a 4cm snake + Mic No Mo vs bringing the 1.2 lb ISP and a single TS cable + XLR cable for FOH.


Anyway, in general, if you can deal with the bizarre power supply, which I gotta be honest isn't bothering me at all, I can highly recommend the ISP Stealth Pro as a 180W, Class A/B, 8 ohm option. Whole thing fits easily in my gig bag and is incredibly light and small, overall, and sounds really great. I am definitely keeping it as at least a backup for my Dyne (and probably selling the Katana 100).

The....appreciable differences in minutia is real. Seriously.

I want real drive pedals and real wah. I want the BL. But I also want those post effects and routing modeling provides. It's tough out there

 

[TubeStack]

The....appreciable differences in minutia is real. Seriously.

I want real drive pedals and real wah. I want the BL. But I also want those post effects and routing modeling provides. It's tough out there

I finally weaned myself off my Keeley Fuzz Head, a fuzz/OD I've used for going on 9 years now, haha. Every multi-effect I've used, since starting with the HXFX four years ago (then Helix Floor, Stomp, FM3, MS3, HXFX again, and now FM9), I've never been able to let go of the Fuzz Head.

But I'm all in with the FM9 for drives now and they're amazing. So far the Timmy Down has replaced the Keeley FH and the SD1 has replaced my MXR CBMOD. Sticking to those two is helping me keep it simple and not get lost in options. I'm tweaking enough, getting the BE100 v3 to sound as good as I can get it.

 

[JT]

I finally weaned my self off my Keely Fuzz Head, a fuzz/OD I've used for going on 9 years now, haha. Every multi-effect I've used, since starting with the HXFX four years ago (then Helix Floor, Stomp, FM3, MS3, HXFX again, and now FM9), I've never been able to let go of the Fuzz Head.

But I'm all in with the FM9 for drives now and they're amazing. So far the Timmy Down has replaced the Keeley FH and the SD1 has replaced my MXR CBMOD. Sticking to those two is helping me keep it simple and not get lost in options. I'm tweaking enough, getting the BE100 v3 to sound as good as I can get it.

What is doing fuzz duty for you? I've spoiled myself now. This is my gigrig right now

I want the 3rd drive and the Stomp off my board. Struggle is always real.

 

[TubeStack]

What is doing fuzz duty for you? I've spoiled myself now. This is my gigrig right now

I want the 3rd drive and the Stomp off my board. Struggle is always real.

If I could have a love and drool reaction simultaneously on a post….

Love it! Looks killer and sounds amazing, I'll bet. Hella fun.

I actually have nothing doing fuzz duty, yet, as I used the Keeley as more of a slightly-fuzzy boost into the Dyne crunch channel (and Marshall Vintage Modern before that). That's really how it excels, it's not much of a fuzz on its own. I found it to be more of an even boost, EQ-wise, in contrast to the MXR CBMOD (or SD1) mid hump, and it just feels great into a Mesa and cleans up really well on the guitar volume knob. But I've now got the FM9 Timmy doing essentially the same thing and sounding fantastic.

Love your board with the Stomp + other pedals. As much as I love my FM9, I sometimes feel like I'm always one step away from going back to a smaller Stomp + pedals setup with my Dyne.

(One thing that keeps me from doing that is my addiction as a singer to the TCH Mic Mechanic 2: it's crazy power-hungry and can't share a Trutone C6 with a Stomp, so that requires a separate power adapter for the MM2, which means tying/taping it under the board, etc, blegh, and stops that whole train of thought, for now, haha.)

 

[JT]

If I could have a love and drool reaction simultaneously on a post….

Love it! Looks killer and sounds amazing, I'll bet. Hella fun.

I actually have nothing doing fuzz duty, yet, as I used the Keeley as more of a slightly-fuzzy boost into the Dyne crunch channel (and Marshall Vintage Modern before that). That's really how it excels, it's not much of a fuzz on its own. I found it to be more of an even boost, EQ-wise, in contrast to the MXR CBMOD (or SD1) mid hump, and it just feels great into a Mesa and cleans up really well on the guitar volume knob. But I've now got the FM9 Timmy doing essentially the same thing and sounding fantastic.

Love your board with the Stomp + other pedals. As much as I love my FM9, I sometimes feel like I'm always one step away from going back to a smaller Stomp + pedals setup with my Dyne.

(One thing that keeps me from doing that is my addiction as a singer to the TCH Mic Mechanic 2: it's crazy power-hungry and can't share a Trutone C6 with a Stomp, so that requires a separate adapter for the MM2, which means tying/taping it under the board, etc, blegh, and stops that whole train of thought, for now, haha.)

The string of 46 adapters/cables to get Stomp to work with pedal power is RIDICULOUS. I wanted to plop the Stomp on the GR to save on cables and control via midi but that jury is still out. For now.

 

[TubeStack]

Question about gain-staging and wattage:

I want to make sure I'm not clipping the ISP SP and/or exceeding the wattage of my beloved Mesa cabs.

I'm running the FM9 at +4dB into the ISP SP. The ISP manual says it can take max +17 dBu at the input.

At band practice, I had the PVH 6160 master at 5-6 and the overall level of the amp block at -10 dB, using Output 1 with the knob turned fully up, and the ISP volume was at halfway. This sounded loud and awesome, but a little like there wasn't much headroom, though I'm not sure if that's because the PVH model's master was fairly high. The ISP was quite warm to the touch, way warmer than at home when I have the amp block level at -27 dB or so (Output 1 knob still full up). Not sure if that's a concern?

Overall, the Mesa 4x12 is rated at 240W and the ISP 180W, so I've got wattage room, but I'm wondering if I can exceed 180W with the ISP if the FM9 is putting out a super loud signal? Or will the ISP always put out 180 W or less, no matter what's feeding it? I also don't want to clip/blow out the ISP with a super hot FM9.

However, being that the 4x12 is 240W, I'm more concerned about my 120W Recto 2x12 and the 180W ISP blowing that cab. I know people use the SD PS 700 with single 60W speaker, but I'm not sure it that includes running the FM9 at +4 and output level pretty high (I believe the 700 is designed for -10 at input).

TL;DR : can the FM9 clip the ISP and can the ISP put out > 180W? Should I worry about my 120W 2x12, even if i never have the ISP volume more than halfway?

Thanks.

 

[TubeStack]

Okay, looking into it a bit, I don't think I'm at risk of clipping the ISP. Don't think I'm at risk of blowing speakers on the 2x12 either, but please let me know if you think I am.

This has been good, because I'm learning about setting levels on the FM9 and all the ways to check them.

Basically, what I've been doing is keeping the Output 1 hardware knob at full and the ISP volume at halfway, and using the Amp block to set the overall level. This seems to be an okay approach, checking over at the Fractal forum...

 

[JT]

Okay, looking into it a bit, I don't think I'm at risk of clipping the ISP. Don't think I'm at risk of blowing speakers on the 2x12 either, but please let me know if you think I am.

This has been good, because I'm learning about setting levels on the FM9 and all the ways to check them.

Basically, what I've been doing is keeping the Output 1 hardware knob at full and the ISP volume at halfway, and using the Amp block to set the overall level. This seems to be an okay approach, checking over at the Fractal forum...

I think you're generally safe. I struggled with gain staging a lot more on the FM3 vs the 9 for no real reason.

 

[laxu]

I actually went back to the Dyne and 4cm FM9 about three days after having such a great time with the ISP at practice. There really is no doubt that it is by FAR the best-sounding and feeling setup. However, last night I got the FM9 Friedman BE100 v3 model going with the ISP and had it sounding very good. too. If I had to use a number, I'd say the FM9+ISP can sound about 75-80, maybe 80-85% as good as the Dyne through the same cab (Mesa Recto Horizontal 2x12).

Is that enough to warrant switching to the ISP and FM9 completely? I don't know... and I know a lot of you D&M guys have been through this 100 times (and most of you seem back to using tube amps? ) I also know it doesn't have to be all one or the other, but I seem to be that kind of guy. I really enjoy drinking the kool aid on something and going all-in for a while, it seems. But the FM9 and ISP does sound F-ing AMAZING and if I had never played the Dyne (or other 100W tube amps) I'd probably think the FM9 was the best thing I've ever heard.

Honestly, a decibel meter is your best friend if you are comparing. Just making sure you are always listening at the same volume makes a big difference. Then you can focus on the more minute aspects like how it feels, if it matches your favorite amp or whatever.

My finding is that the Fryette Power Station 100 I used was no better as a poweramp than my BluGuitar Amp 1 ME. The Fryette was a bit more flat but also a lot heavier and noisier. With either unit the thing that made my Axe-Fx 3 feel like playing one of the tube amps I had or the BluGuitar into my real cabs was the Amp block speaker impedance curve setting.

I found the SIC hard to set up manually by ear so I picked the closest preset one just by testing them out one by one and comparing the feel vs a tube amp I had connected to the Fryette. Obviously this does not mean you have to pick like this, you can just pick what you prefer instead. In any case finding the right curve (Brit 4x10 or something like that for my 4x10 w/ 10" Greenbacks) made all the difference as for example a JCM800 model now felt right when it was no longer using a 4x12 SIC. Then every other model just lined up where it felt nice to play and similar to what I had with real amps. For my 1x12 with Alnico Gold I found the Morgan AC20 Deluxe curve to be the best option.

It's easy enough to try for yourself.

 

[TubeStack]

React

Honestly, a decibel meter is your best friend if you are comparing. Just making sure you are always listening at the same volume makes a big difference. Then you can focus on the more minute aspects like how it feels, if it matches your favorite amp or whatever.

My finding is that the Fryette Power Station 100 I used was no better as a poweramp than my BluGuitar Amp 1 ME. The Fryette was a bit more flat but also a lot heavier and noisier. With either unit the thing that made my Axe-Fx 3 feel like playing one of the tube amps I had or the BluGuitar into my real cabs was the Amp block speaker impedance curve setting.

I found the SIC hard to set up manually by ear so I picked the closest preset one just by testing them out one by one and comparing the feel vs a tube amp I had connected to the Fryette. Obviously this does not mean you have to pick like this, you can just pick what you prefer instead. In any case finding the right curve (Brit 4x10 or something like that for my 4x10 w/ 10" Greenbacks) made all the difference as for example a JCM800 model now felt right when it was no longer using a 4x12 SIC. Then every other model just lined up where it felt nice to play and similar to what I had with real amps. For my 1x12 with Alnico Gold I found the Morgan AC20 Deluxe curve to be the best option.

It's easy enough to try for yourself.

Yes, I'm using a decibel meter on my phone and choosing the correct/closest SIC for each cab I have. The phone is probably not super accurate, but keeps things in the same vicinity. The whole Speaker tab of the amp block makes a big difference, I've found.

I agree re. SIC, it makes a huge difference on the whole thing feeling "tube-like." I've tried this setup with three cabs (each one separately), my Lone Star and Horizontal Recto 2x12s, and a Trad 4x12. The LS and Trad cabs seem perfectly matched with the SICs, I'm not as sure about the Recto SIC. The Fractal wiki says the Recto SIC is the Compact version, and mine is the larger one, so I'm not sure it's the best match. The wiki also says the info may be incorrect, so who knows. (I did try changing the LF Resonance a bit, didn't seem to do much.)