The modeler conundrum in 2023

[dk_ace]

Take similar amp models on both, use the same IR, and generally you’ll find that you can make them sound and feel identical pretty easily.

The FM will give you super granular control of tons of extra small/advanced things which are generally pretty subtle but can be useful if you know how to use them. Whether that is meaningful to you is just a personal preference. Others would argue there’s hardly anything in them that can’t be done with an eq, drive, and/or compressor block. All that matters on that divide is what you think…

There’s an absolute ton of options on FMs. There are some real gem amp models in both HX and FM. Which one you prefer might be strongly driven by what your favorite amp sounds are.

To me, the deciding factor between them when I had both was which one I preferred for live use the way I do things. The Helix won that handily due to the snapshot control and ease of editing things quick and easy on the hardware live when I needed to. Ymmv.

D

 

[Desertdweller]

Just my $.02 but I think the FM9 is the best modeler out there from a price/features standpoint. Amazing modeler, and if you want to run it with an amp it’s inputs/outputs are designed to work well in 4CM with an amp where the FM3 is not.

This makes it a best-of-both-worlds kind of device IMO.

 

[Jarick]

I think it would be neat but just have to make sure it's down correctly. Nothing worse than spending all that time to find out there was an issue

But yeah to be fair it has been down often but maybe not by a TGF member!

Honestly, I've done all my comparisons pretty well if I can say so. I use the same DI clips, use the same IR's, level match, check multiple monitor references, etc. I've never gotten anything for free from any company, have never sold anything, have no financial interest in any of the outcomes, and am really open minded when it comes to gear.

Many years ago I thought about starting up a YouTube channel because I found these comparisons really interesting and would have liked more interaction and exposure, but I just don't have the time and energy. Full time job, three kids, house that is constantly being attacked by cats, etc.

 

[JCW308]

Oh, been saying the same for a while. The second Line 6 releases a "Helix Mini" (full DSP, small form factor, no exp pedal) i'm ordering three.

Same.

 

[Jarick]

Same.

+2

I'd give up on the micro form factor of the HX Stomp if I could get a full power Helix in the size of a Quad Cortex, with 8-10 switches.

 

[Antipodes]

Thanks gentlemen.
More & more I'm feeling like The HX Stomp or HX Stomp LT is the best option for me.

The LT is based on the full Helix without a few features but has 2x the DSP of the Stomp or Stomp XL.

 

[KHAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!!]

The one thing I'd add is the consensus is overwhelmingly in favor of Helix in terms of user experience on the unit. But if you are using it as a desktop unit for recording, the Fractal editor is very good, and not difficult to learn IMO.

 

[Elric]

QC.

 

[laxu]

I was working on a full audio comparison of all the different modelers (Axe FX 3, Helix, Kemper, NDSP) this week, but there didn't seem to be much interest and I moved on to other things. If it's really helpful, I can try and work on it over the weekend.

I think your previous rather nice clips already showed that it's really up to preferences at this point.

I'd be interested in e.g comparing Helix vs Axe-Fx 3 drives and other effects because that honestly hasn't had much discussion whereas the amp/cab sims get excessive attention.

 

[Gearzilla]

Nothing beats the power of Axe-Edit.

 

[Stone]

Coming from Helix of almost 3 years, I can say its a great platform
but I can say it was always a struggle to get the tones I wanted, Fractal on the other hand is so much easier
Fractal can be tweaked to the Nth degree if you want, but really not required if that's not your thing
Helix always required Heavy EQ'ing, compressor's, tilt and shelve EQ
Fractal, open a preset that is close to what you want, tweak to liking and Bob's your uncle
its that good and easy
not to mention new Dynacabs coming to FM series soon

Cheers

 

[Speedyone]

I’m curious why not Kemper?

Helix has the best UI, hands down.

Fractal is incredible, but expensive.

Kemper in my user experience (super high gain amps and clean amps,) has better amp sounds than Helix, and is less expensive than Kemper.

I’ve got a Kemper, want a Fractal one day….

 

[V|J]

I’ve never tried a Fractal unit.
Only tried S Gear, Neural plugins and have been using Helix for some time now.

I think you can’t go wrong with any modeler these days. They’re all so good. A fractal from what I read is dialed in better, which I felt about Neural DSP and S Gear as well.

If a beginner could buy something, it should be the skill to dial in a sound quickly but that’s not possible.

And all of them have so many amps, fx etc.. you’ll just end up using very few amps and fx. Eventually, we all end up dialing in the same sounds anyway.

My 2 cents:
Keep it simple.
Go for something with an easy UI.

Fwiw, I play edge of breakup and clean-ish most of the time, with some death metal mixed in.
Helix does it all and more.

And your speakers will affect the experience more than the modeler..

 

[Jarick]

I think your previous rather nice clips already showed that it's really up to preferences at this point.

I'd be interested in e.g comparing Helix vs Axe-Fx 3 drives and other effects because that honestly hasn't had much discussion whereas the amp/cab sims get excessive attention.

Very true.

I ended up finishing the comparison today and it's just so subtle of a difference in many cases, or just a little bit of EQ differences. There were several times I literally couldn't tell the difference between the Fractal and Helix units.

Honestly, I don't really like using drive pedals in modelers. Maybe a fuzz or a boost sometimes. But I don't like stacking overdrives or anything. Would rather just pick a different amp.

I do have to say, when comparing them using the same IR the Kemper didn't sound great. But when playing through the Kemper directly it sounds awesome. I think it works better using the whole profile than trying to separate the amp from cab.

There's also something about the physical knobs on the Kemper, and the way the effects sit with the amp tone. I really wish there was some kind of product with a bunch of knobs I could plug into the Fractal to have access to the main amp controls and some effects parameters. I've played around with performance pages but the page up/down is annoying, and the little encoder knobs aren't as satisfying to use as the sturdy ones on the Kemper.

Really curious where this liquid profile thing shakes out. If they can model the gain of the amp on top of the EQ, that would really be incredible. There's some amazing profiles for the Kemper, but having to sift through 15 different ones to scale up and down on gain is annoying. If I could say have one profile of a Matchless that would go from clean to saturated in a realistic way, man that may be game over.

And yes, the modelers can do that, but I really dislike impulse responses at this point. They are such a pain in the ass to deal with.

 

[TSJMajesty]

The only comparison I can make is between the Axe III and the NDSP Petrucci plugin. There are 3 things I notice in comparing the plugin to the JPIIC in the Axe: (All high gain tones, using headphones)

1) I'm trying to get my string changes to the point where there's no gap, yet there's also no overlap. And I can do it, even in fast riffs, but no matter how deliberate I am in the Axe, there's like a lingering split second of the note (much more prominent on the wound strings) that's almost like it's not letting go, on the Axe. I know it to be so, because I can play the same riff through the plugin, and it's not there. It's a sort of "mud." This is with no effects.

2) There's a fizz in the tones that seems like it's annoyingly separate in the Axe, but seems like it's a true part of the tone in the plugin. It used to drive me nuts in the Axe, so I knew I wasn't crazy in that the very first time I used the plugin, I noticed a difference.

3) This one's harder to describe, more in the context of presets I've tweaked..., the plugin can be harder to "tame." Like, I find myself being reminded much more using the plugin that I have to pay strict attention to any unwanted string noise.

These could be simply because the IR in the plugin is a bit smoother maybe, but this is using the factory presets, but without tweaking the cabs. So it could be that I still need to learn how to dial the tones in better. But it makes me want to use the plugin more often. And I don't think a listener could hear what I'm hearing in a recording, because it's subtle, and the tones are extremely close.

But it seems that these nuances can be what makes us as players, favor one platform over another.

 

[laxu]

There's also something about the physical knobs on the Kemper, and the way the effects sit with the amp tone. I really wish there was some kind of product with a bunch of knobs I could plug into the Fractal to have access to the main amp controls and some effects parameters. I've played around with performance pages but the page up/down is annoying, and the little encoder knobs aren't as satisfying to use as the sturdy ones on the Kemper.

I've been asking Fractal for better MIDI controller support, MIDI mapping support, relative value support etc for exactly this reason.

I've even tried building my own middleman software to do this but without any Sysex specs to go on (and no, that footswitch MIDI Sysex implementation does not count), I'm guessing based on what I've been able to capture out of the Sysex data from Axe-Edit. I haven't been able to get it working, partly because I don't really know how to work with byte data well enough, partially because I don't know what the Axe-Fx is supposed to receive and respond.

Since the Axe-Fx 2 had MIDI Sysex example code and more Sysex specs released, I was able to make a software that mapped MIDI CC -> Axe-Fx Sysex and it worked just tremendously well. There's so much potential in being able to integrate user-configured MIDI control with the units but Fractal just does not support it directly in any sensible capacity. The 16 external control mappings are not even going to scratch the surface.

Helix is a bit better since at least you can map up to 64 controls to parameters. But it all falls apart because it ditches those controls when swapping models, the mapping is only per preset etc. I thought maybe being able to replicate the onboard controls with MIDI would have done it, but nope, it's just good enough to have some sort of remote for it but cannot expand to being able to control more params based on which block is selected.

One of Kemper's strengths is the amount of onboard dedicated controls, whether it's for pushing a button to toggle an effect or dedicated knobs for common params. Fractal's Perform view is a pale substitute for that because it still has all the clunkiness of the onboard user interface like having to navigate pages and rows, with severely limited mapping capability only good enough for live use.

OP, this is just a tangent on advanced usage of these devices and should not count for any decisions on which one to pick.

 

[Stone]

Well thats the thing nothing is ever going to be perfect anyone individual we all have different needs and wants, just have to choose which is best for you or as close to as possible
For me Thats Fractal for others maybe some other platform

 

[Riffraff]

If you own a half-decent audio interface, try the Helix Native trial version. While the audio interface will have an effect on how it performs, it can sound the same as Helix hardware. So that's an easy way to test drive how Helix works and sounds. You can even set it to emulate one of the hw units so it limits the available blocks to e.g HX Stomp.

Took your advice and downloaded the trial version of Helix Native.

Set up a dual amp patch with Comp > 1st Matchless model > 112 cab > delay (vintage solid state or something like that) > dynamic plate reverb AND comp > 1st Deluxe model >112 cab >criss cross delay > dynamic hall reverb.

Plugged in my Charvel and set it to single coil and fell in love. I think that exceeds the block capacity of the HX Stomp platform. I can dump the compressors.

Dual amp with reverb & delay on both would be my most resource hungry preset. Can the HX Stomp handle that?

I think I want the HX Stomp XL because I like the cable routing with that one best.

 

[FractalAudio]

Has it really been 3 months since it’s been in-stock? Any ETA on inventory @FractalAudio ?

IIRC they are due in July 10th.

 

[Riffraff]

LOL oh boy. ^ This ^ may change everything.

@FractalAudio Are you referring to the FM3 or the FM9?