The exact gigging product I want does not exist.

[JT]

Disclaimer for this will give you a headache. Don't care; need to type it out. I feel like Gasp on this but what are you gonna do?

I love the Badlander.

I love the VII.

Love 'em both. Full. Stop. This is not a watch me backpedal to the Mustang GT on a stick because once I unrung that bell with these Mesas...um...yeah

This over-explanation aside; the exact product I want for gigging does not yet exist. Except maybe the St. James and a jump down to that is not something I really am prepared to do.

Here's what I neep: Amp with fx loop where I can run IRs and post effects and have all that sent to the cabs I am powering with the amp itself (a pair of Celestion F12s). On the same amp; I want a phase correct direct out I can send to FOH with all those same effects and cab emulation my modeler is providing in the amp's effects loop.

Problem on the Boogie stuff is even with a null IR loaded in the onboard IR loader; the Boogie XLR out has some weird phase issues when I run it this way. If I use the modeler in my amp's loop and take a tap of it before it hits the amp return; that signal for FOH is fine. Only it doesn't contain any sort of power amp emulation. Which sucks. I realize this is first world problems and this is only an issue at bigger gigs where everything is running through the PA. If I wasn't using any effects; the line out could work for this. But all sorts of idiotic (duh it's me!) gymnastics would be necessary that I am not doing. Ugh.

 

[fretworn]

 

[jellodog]

If I understand your setup, even with a null IR in the Boogie XLR out, there is still an AD -> DA conversion going on, and even if that only takes a millisecond then the signal is still going to be delayed by a millisecond.

And then there's the modeller in the loop (Helix?) that's probably going to be 2 milliseconds. But regardless, the phase of the two different conversions is not going to match up unless you add some alignment delay to whichever signal is ahead.

 

[jellodog]

So it might be better to avoid full conversion via the modeller in the FX loop, for a start - i.e. only use traditional effect pedals with good analogue dry thru so that your core tone is not delayed? Appreciate that's not what you want though JT.

 

[JT]

If I understand your setup, even with a null IR in the Boogie XLR out, there is still an AD -> DA conversion going on, and even if that only takes a millisecond then the signal is still going to be delayed by a millisecond.

And then there's the modeller in the loop (Helix?) that's probably going to be 2 milliseconds. But regardless, the phase of the two different conversions is not going to match up unless you add some alignment delay to whichever signal is ahead.

Yep. A flat enough mic on the speaker would be a "solution" of sorts as well.

 

[jellodog]

This is truly a signal chain nightmare, JT.

 

[JT]

This is truly a signal chain nightmare, JT.

No one ever said I was easy

 

[FuzzyAce]

Just toss those crappy amps and use the Helix stomp. done.

 

[DrewJD82]

 

[Sleezy E]

 

[MixMinisterMike]

So..... You want a powered Kemper?

 

[JT]

So..... You want a powered Kemper?

They do this part right!

 

[metropolis_4]

These are exactly the sort of problems that always lead me back to digital. Every single time I try going back to amps

 

[GreatGreen]

Digital signal always requires some conversion time, so it always causes phase issues with analog signal.

The only way to fix it is to ensure everything in the chain incurs the same time cost of AD/DA conversion. For me, I do this by running a tube amp's preamp into a modeler which also serves as my IR loader. From there, I split the signal inside the modeler so that one signal has an IR added to it and the other signal simply carries the sound of the preamp straight through the modeler unaffected and routed to a separate physical output jack of the modeler. From there, run the modeler's output jack with the IR to FoH, and the modeler's output with nothing added to it back to the tube amp's effects return. That way the AD/DA conversion time is applied to both signals, so the phasing issues are resolved.

You can also run a tube amp > reactive load into the modeler and split the signal the same way, but with the dry signal going out to another poweramp and cab, whatever works for you.

You're right about the Mesa built in IR loader though, it would have been smart for Mesa to have added a "time sync" switch or something that just ran the preamp through the same converters as the IR loader (without being processed by an IR) before routing it back out to the poweramp so you'd have the option of running both a real cab and simultaneously an IR-processed signal to FoH if you wanted.

 

[sleewell]

I'd just mic your cab and call it a day.

I send a direct signal plus micing my cab when we are recording but live I don't bother.


Bro I guarantee you are probably one of the best sounding bands in your area and achieving this dream rig idea would probably not sway anyone who sees your band in either direction lol but I get the perfectionist desire and wanting to push tech as far as we can.

 

[JT]

These are exactly the sort of problems that always lead me back to digital. Every single time I try going back to amps

I don't view this as a problem really. Especially when we are not running everything through the PA. The difference between using the Boogies and a modeler for my guitar tone is a pretty stark contrast that I am not going backwards on.

Digital signal always requires some conversion time, so it always causes phase issues with analog signal.

The only way to fix it is to ensure everything in the chain incurs the same time cost of AD/DA conversion. For me, I do this by running a tube amp's preamp into a modeler which also serves as my IR loader. From there, I split the signal inside the modeler so that one signal has an IR added to it and the other signal simply carries the sound of the preamp straight through the modeler unaffected and routed to a separate physical output jack of the modeler. From there, run the modeler's output jack with the IR to FoH, and the modeler's output with nothing added to it back to the tube amp's effects return.

You can also run a tube amp > reactive load into the modeler and split the signal the same way, but with the dry signal going out to another poweramp and cab, whatever works for you.

You're right about the Mesa built in IR loader though, it would have been smart for Mesa to have added a "time sync" switch or something that just ran the preamp through the same converters as the IR loader (without being processed by an IR) before routing it back out to the poweramp so you'd have the option of running both a real cab and simultaneously an IR-processed signal to FoH if you wanted.

Certainly some challenges in every direction. I have a few different routes I could go. I have some IRs that are power amp curves and could add them on the preamp send chain I currently send to FOH to give a little bit of oomph on top of the preamp and FX feed it's getting currently. Probably a juice isn't worth the squeeze situation but I am open to the idea of it nonetheless.

I'd just mic your cab and call it a day.

I send a direct signal plus micing my cab when we are recording but live I don't bother.


Bro I guarantee you are probably one of the best sounding bands in your area and achieving this dream rig idea would probably not sway anyone who sees your band in either direction lol but I get the perfectionist desire and wanting to push tech as far as we can.

I have a bunch of caveats based on my situation but if there's a flat enough mic that works for live purposes; this would actually be the easiest way to go.

 

[spawnofthesith]

 

[gearJunkie]

I just spent about 15 minutes typing out the perfect solution for you, only to realize it wouldn't work.

Now I see the crux.

 

[Devin]

Can't has

 

[jellodog]

I just spent about 15 minutes typing out the perfect solution for you, only to realize it wouldn't work.

Now I see the crux.

If it's any consolation to you: Thinking about JT's problem, I went through the exact same loop of hope and despair last night.