Stuff

[laxu]

You're over analyzing it.

I ran the Helix Floor in freakin' 7CM into two amps in stereo, with each amp having pre/post fx. That still was totally fine for both tone and latency. Obviously a totally insane rig to use, but I did it just to try it out.

When the QC released 3 years ago, I owned the Helix Floor, QC and FM3 at the same time. I extensively compared them back to back.

The most important differences are going to be:

• Workflow. At the time the QC was the best onboard UI, the Helix a good in-betweener and the FM3. Axe-Edit had the best computer editor, QC had none back then, and HX Edit is "meh, good enough."
• Effects quality. Not amp/cab sim quality, effects. FM3 > Helix > QC for me.
• Form factor and footswitching. QC is a bit cramped for stomping, but a great desktop unit. Helix Floor has everything you need but is hideously large for my tastes. FM3's 3 footswitches are just not enough IMO for all the features it has, and it's an inelegant, somewhat chonky box that doesn't go that nicely on a pedalboard or desk.

Latency, conversion quality...these are totally irrelevant factors IMO. The top units are all good enough in this regard.

For amp sims, consider if it's more important to you to have good tones, or if you are a stickler about the accuracy of things. This will determine if you are ok with e.g Boss, Hotone, Kemper etc, or if you should go for say Fractal. Getting tones that sound good and are fun to play is easier than ever.

For effects, Fractal rules the roost, but Helix provides a more pedalboard style experience. QC is alright, but not going to blow your socks off.

I sold the QC because I did not trust NDSP's roadmap. It was the right move back then. I sold the Helix Floor mainly because I wanted a desktop friendly unit, and the Helix was definitely not it, while the HX Stomp is too gimped in onboard UI. So FM3 was the compromise, even though I don't like using it without the editor. But I'd still recommend Helix any day for someone looking for a do-it-all floor unit.

IMO the Tone Master Pro is atm where the QC was at release. Unknown roadmap and not a mature product.

If you just want something different to try, the Hotone Ampero 2 Stomp or Stage is pretty inexpensive and is kind of like a "QC meets HX Stomp" in many ways. The Stage has the capture feature which might satisfy you for amp sounds if you have amps to capture, or maybe you can capture your IRX to slap it into the unit. A2 Stomp is likely to get the capture feature next year.

I think you just need to buy a unit or two and just try them for yourself. This is easier if they are something sold by a major retailer and don't cost $1500+ a pop since it's easier to afford a few and return the one(s) you don't like.

 

[jellodog]

I found the capture I settled on for my favorite Friedman BE 'preset' on Nano has a gain roll off on the guitar volume pot equal to the IR-X. Some captures work better than others in that regard.
I set the IR-X and Nano up side by side and tried to make the IR-X compel me to keep it but it became obvious it wasn't a better option and obviously limited. I wouldn't say it is 'only one sound' but it is only one amp replication and the Nano has it covered...and then provides countless other amps too.

Exactly!

And at the end of the day, the IR-X does a conversion and has a captured power amp anyway, so at that point you've already crossed into the digital world and the resulting tones are similar. I was jonesing for an IR-D but came to the conclusion that if I was going to spend cash that was in the NC ballpark anyway, then I might as well just buy that because it ticked more of my boxes.

Additionally, the NC has stereo outs and time-based / modulation effects; which is really important to me for headphone play let alone everything else.

(I don't give a shit about the pitch block! ha!).

 

[GTR37]

There was a MS80IR+ thread floating a few weeks ago where I posted side by side Choptones demos of Helix vs new zoom algos. Lets put it this way, if you listen to that and think the Helix algos are "head and shoulders above" then you are probably one of those people who hears the HX artifacts and conflate them with "realistic". That demo example showcases exactly what is wrong with the HX tones to my ears. Even on a low/mid gain amp there is a boxy compression that doesn't breathe.

But that doesn't matter. Helix is far in rearview mirror. Its been ten years they are due an update. I'm sure their next series will be fantastic.

Sure... if we're splitting hairs about that hard to define extra 2% in the accuracy stakes.

But the QC / NC captures are still super enjoyable, accurate enough and satisfying, even if they do sometimes sound very subtly "different" to the Tonex. I quite like the "different", actually.

Similar to how a there's many Kemper users out there that still like its compressed enhanced mids, even though it's technically less accurate than all of the other capture devices these days. Just try it and see if you like it.

Anyway, despite owning an Axe-Fx, I bought the Nano and I've been enjoying it. An Excellent capture on the QC or NC will still sound better than an average capture on Tonex and vice versa - there's so much variation in the different capture processes used by individuals. Some hobbyists and some professionals.

Regardless:

Just get the FM3. It has a plethora of fabulous amps to offer and excellent effects. If you don't like it, the resale value is decent.

And absolutely do not consider the Boss. They blew it!

I agree
I have tried the ToneX and a bunch of the Neural stuff
For me personally not talking cleans but for the Heavier rock stuff my preference is NDSP , they just really have that sound down IMO

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

You're over analyzing it.

I ran the Helix Floor in freakin' 7CM into two amps in stereo, with each amp having pre/post fx. That still was totally fine for both tone and latency. Obviously a totally insane rig to use, but I did it just to try it out.

When the QC released 3 years ago, I owned the Helix Floor, QC and FM3 at the same time. I extensively compared them back to back.

The most important differences are going to be:

• Workflow. At the time the QC was the best onboard UI, the Helix a good in-betweener and the FM3. Axe-Edit had the best computer editor, QC had none back then, and HX Edit is "meh, good enough."
• Effects quality. Not amp/cab sim quality, effects. FM3 > Helix > QC for me.
• Form factor and footswitching. QC is a bit cramped for stomping, but a great desktop unit. Helix Floor has everything you need but is hideously large for my tastes. FM3's 3 footswitches are just not enough IMO for all the features it has, and it's an inelegant, somewhat chonky box that doesn't go that nicely on a pedalboard or desk.

Latency, conversion quality...these are totally irrelevant factors IMO. The top units are all good enough in this regard.

For amp sims, consider if it's more important to you to have good tones, or if you are a stickler about the accuracy of things. This will determine if you are ok with e.g Boss, Hotone, Kemper etc, or if you should go for say Fractal. Getting tones that sound good and are fun to play is easier than ever.

For effects, Fractal rules the roost, but Helix provides a more pedalboard style experience. QC is alright, but not going to blow your socks off.

I sold the QC because I did not trust NDSP's roadmap. It was the right move back then. I sold the Helix Floor mainly because I wanted a desktop friendly unit, and the Helix was definitely not it, while the HX Stomp is too gimped in onboard UI. So FM3 was the compromise, even though I don't like using it without the editor. But I'd still recommend Helix any day for someone looking for a do-it-all floor unit.

IMO the Tone Master Pro is atm where the QC was at release. Unknown roadmap and not a mature product.

If you just want something different to try, the Hotone Ampero 2 Stomp or Stage is pretty inexpensive and is kind of like a "QC meets HX Stomp" in many ways. The Stage has the capture feature which might satisfy you for amp sounds if you have amps to capture, or maybe you can capture your IRX to slap it into the unit. A2 Stomp is likely to get the capture feature next year.

I think you just need to buy a unit or two and just try them for yourself. This is easier if they are something sold by a major retailer and don't cost $1500+ a pop since it's easier to afford a few and return the one(s) you don't like.

Super interesting to read man. About the “stickler about the accuracy of things”… what does that mean? Would somebody listening to the Super reverb in the Helix say “that really doesn’t sound like it” and with the other two “that’s amazing, it’s really the same!” ?? (Hear this in Mick and Dan voices)

 

[jellodog]

I agree
I have tried the ToneX and a bunch of the Neural stuff
For me personally not talking cleans but for the Heavier rock stuff my preference is NDSP , they just really have that sound down IMO

Yup. And although I often like to get all geeky, technical and analyse what I'm hearing; sometimes I try to stop overthinking it and simpy ask myself:

"Am I really enjoying these tones and not wanting to stop playing?"

And the answer was an almost immediate YES, from the moment I unboxed it and booted it up.

Quite the revelation.

 

[laxu]

Thanks, I really appreciate your reply and your thought process. You have been on this journey longer than I have.

I can understand and respect why you would recommend the Ampero 2 Stomp as a good compromise of features and cost. For similar reasons this is why I've settled on the G11 (Good interface, two loops, good enough amp sims). The Ampero seems to have more utility but one less loop. I could see myself sidegrading to the Ampero Stomp or Stage, especially to free up some space, but I would also need a Morningstar ML5.

You gave good insight into why the QC is possibly underwhelming. And also how the TMP is in a similar situation (light on effects). QC and TMP are the only other boards with two loops however (besides the GT1000 which is dq).

My thinking is that if I have a ToneX or NC I won't be missing Fractal models. The fractal is quite large for only three switches. If I go with Fractal, I would need an expression pedal and also an ML5. I don't believe the FM9 has two loops either, only the FX3.

There is no perfect solution. I'm leaning towards just adding a ToneX.

For the record I really, really wanted to love the QC as I think it did sounds very good for the amp sims and captures, I just wasn't sold on its effects at the time but now it has more options. As said, you just need to try it out.

The A2 Stomp is an easy recommendation because it's <450 €, while having a QC-comparable onboard UI, Helix comparable computer editor, effects and amp models that are a mixed bag, but mostly good. I would be way more critical about it if it was 1500 €, but it's not so I can give it way more leeway than a TMP or QC for example.

A few weeks back I was playing it loud through my 4x10, using my BluGuitar as a poweramp to run either the Ampero preamp models or the full amp models. I got some really solid tones out of it, but the amps do tend to lean on being darker than some other modelers, but there's enough range to just make them brighter. If the lack of highs on the IRX was an issue for you, it might be a problem on the Hotone too. I use the rather versatile global EQ to boost the highs to counter this.

But that's like my biggest complaint about about it. If it gets the capture feature, then I just don't see why anyone would buy a Kemper or Nano Cortex over this when it has a full suite of effects, and the capability to run a surprising amount of them.

The Ampero does have a stereo loop, but you need Y-cables for this. You can put "mono L" and "mono R" send/return blocks in multiple places so it seems like it can actually work like two separate mono loops.

 

[laxu]

About the “stickler about the accuracy of things”… what does that mean? Would somebody listening to the Super reverb in the Helix say “that really doesn’t sound like it” and with the other two “that’s amazing, it’s really the same!” ?? (Hear this in Mick and Dan voices)

Well let's say that you have been using a real Super Reverb for years, so you are very familiar with how it works when it's set a particular way, how it feels to play. Then you buy a modeler, you would be more critical about how the modeled Super Reverb works, right? You'd want it to do all the things your realworld counterpart does.

That's where you get into all those little things that I feel Fractal does better than anybody else. I do think Line6 does a lot of the right stuff too.

But if you have never played a real Super Reverb, what do you know? You'd just want something that sounds/feels good to play. Plus even if you have, your amp is not Fractal's or Line6's reference amp. Cab sims, output systems...all that complicates matters even for comparing the real deal to the modeled version.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Well let's say that you have been using a real Super Reverb for years, so you are very familiar with how it works when it's set a particular way, how it feels to play. Then you buy a modeler, you would be more critical about how the modeled Super Reverb works, right? You'd want it to do all the things your realworld counterpart does.

That's where you get into all those little things that I feel Fractal does better than anybody else. I do think Line6 does a lot of the right stuff too.

But if you have never played a real Super Reverb, what do you know? You'd just want something that sounds/feels good to play. Plus even if you have, your amp is not Fractal's or Line6's reference amp. Cab sims, output systems...all that complicates matters even for comparing the real deal to the modeled version.

Makes total sense. Also interested what those little things in fractal are but let’s not derail the thread too much

 

[jellodog]

I've owned enough modellers now to know that the cab sim contributes as much as half of the resulting tone.

So if you're using IRs - the choice and quality of IR is of the utmost importance. A shitty choice of IR can make the most meticulously crafted of amp sims sound like ass.

Similarly, the top tier amp modellers of today now sound fairly similar when piped through the same IR. So in some ways, the agony of choice and analysis paralysis can be somewhat mitigated, once one owns a decent selection of go-to IRs and accepts this. Of course, quality of effects and other features are another matter.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

I've owned enough modellers now to know that the cab sim contributes as much as half of the resulting tone.

So if you're using IRs - the choice and quality of IR is of the utmost importance. A shitty choice of IR can make the most meticulously crafted of amp sims sound like ass.

Similarly, the top tier amp modellers of today now sound fairly similar when piped through the same IR. So in some ways, the agony of choice and analysis paralysis can be somewhat mitigated, once one owns a decent selection of go-to IRs and accepts this. Of course, quality of effects and other features are another matter.

York :)

 

[Sascha Franck]

I will either get a ToneX or a QC.

And what will you be using along with the Tonex?

 

[laxu]

Makes total sense. Also interested what those little things in fractal are but let’s not derail the thread too much

I think you can just boil it down to more complex modeling, where subtle details you find on real amps are better represented. But Helix is no slouch in this regard either.

 

[laxu]

After playing with the IR-X, I spent some quality time with the G11 models and remembered why I liked it so much. There is nothing lacking in the tone quality, touch, or feel of the (new) amps compared to the IRX. I was expecting there to be a noticeable difference, but there isn't any harshness, flubbiness, boxiness, compression, or graininess that we used to expect with models. These latest generation zoom models are quite acceptable. I'm not saying they are "fractal quality", but for fantasy amps they sound real enough and suit the purpose of generic amps that can be dialed quickly.

Having the IR block right there, where all I have to do is touch the block, scroll select an IR, and have simultaneous access to the hi/lo pass filter encoders to tailor the tone (along with the amp controls and other encoders) means I can work 10x faster than any other UI. I am recommitted to having a good UI. Fractal is out again after being reminded how important it is to me.

I got the IR-X under the assumption that it would be better sounding and rekindle my interest in playing. It does sound good and real, but honestly not "better". May still keep it, but it hinges on how well it works with my real amp as a preamp.

So, I now have a plan. QC is at front of list, but I am going to do some more research and read the manual. TMP is a distant second, with the hope that frequent updates may fill out the FX list. Really like that it has two analog loops, but the overall poor latency kinda disqualifies it.

I will either get a ToneX or a QC.

I watched a few videos of the G11. Has Zoom improved the way its user interface works over the years? It's nice that it has so many knobs to it, but it seems like it has a ton of separate actions for just simple stuff like "add block", another action for "delete block" and "move block". Each of them gives you the grid for doing that action and nothing else. That seems super dumb compared to e.g QC or Hotone's "just drag a block to move it, or hold block to get a menu of actions."

 

[Frodebro]

Because I can use (say) a Fractal preamp to feed the real amp and I get a ton of options.

I use an FM9 with my band. Sometimes I run it straight into the mixer and big monitors I share with the keyboard player, sometimes I run it into the insert on my JVM 205C.

FWIW, I did some comparisons between the JVM models in the Fractal and the JVM itself, and the end result was that I don’t even bother with running 4CM with the Marshall. The models are so close that it’s a waste of time (and more limiting) to bother with the Marshall preamp.

Also, I think that the FM9 should be considered. It’s the sweet spot in the Fractal lineup, and it can do a heck of a lot more than the FM3 (which is the unit that I first bought to test the Fractal waters).

 

[GTR37]

Sitting here enjoying the IR-X preamp, playing through my studio monitors, and feeling this void.

It sounds "great", but... even though it is tube preamp and sounds completely authentic, it dawned on me that nothing played through my studio monitors will sound more inspirational than this. This is the ceiling. A Fractal isn't going to sound more real.

Even if I buy a Fractal or a QC or a TMP, it will still have the same limits as my current setup. Maybe I can sweeten my enjoyment with some killer reverbs for better ambience to fool my brain, but thats about it. I have every variation of IR and eq shaping at my fingertips, I am running a tube preamp that sounds like a record coming through my speakers, but it is "meh" compared to playing a real amp.

And this is the same wall I run into when auditioning guitar plugins. They can sound great, but its always a "meh" experience. Every high gain amp starts to sound the same. Every IR, once you let your ears adjust, pretty much can be made to sound the same with eq tweaks.

I've got to get some air moving.

Then you probably need something like an oxbox or maybe a Fractal load box and a 50 watt tube head
Other option is the synergy stuff that is kind of like tube modelling the 50 watt or the new 20 watt head they have coming out

Freidman also mentioned a 20 watt most full featured amp he has ever done so I suspect that will have IR loader power amp options etc
But it will be a 20 watt amp

 

[timbuck3]

Recently got a Friedman IR-X which sounds really good with external eq tweaks. Using it in loop of G11, perfectly credible 100% tube tone, the bottom end is tight but lively. The built in G11 Krampus model is very close, and can be almost indistinguishable through same IR at full gain, but it doesn't roll off as well. The IR-X isn't perfect, and its not a "real" BE100 preamp afaict (it basically has only one sound and the eq is very basic), but it does give several switched levels of gain and responds to volume perfectly.

So I'm thinking, this is good, but ...I'm still seeking a real tube style, thick layered gain of a 5150 or Engl. At a crossroads, thinking about an ANTI or v550 pedal, but then I realize I could upgrade to a new modeler and have many more options. The following is my thought process. Please let me know where I am fundamentally wrong.

Fractal FM3
+ Possibly the best amp models (Do they have the last 5% tubeness that the IR-X gives?)
+ Would fit on board
+ Tweaker paradise
- Really bad, terrible on board UI.
- Latency 3ms per loop, running an external preamp in loop will probably be 5-6ms+, not great as real amp harness.
- Only one loop (have read fractal loop can color the tone.. unconfirmed)
- Need a volume pedal ($200)
- Limited switching options with only three buttons.
- Bad switching lag requires scene programming
- Tweaker hell
(Summary: A plethora of realistic amp models, but maybe not quite the last 5% a real tube preamp gives. Limited switching, tweaker's paradise/hell.)

Quad Cortex
+ A growing list of impressive amp models (profiles?)
+ Would fit on board
+ Profiling
+ Two loops
+ Touch UI (mixed reports)
- Expensive
- Slow development pace, limited selection of FX.
- Have heard that Fractal models are a tiny bit better and have more air.
- Need volume pedal ($200)
- Profiling not as good as ToneX
- Latency with effect chain and loop 5ms+
- NDSP plugins are paid content
(Summary: Is it the best all around modeler in 2024? Does it do any one thing the best?)

Fender ToneMasterPro
+ Most attractive UI
+ Fits on board
+ Two analog loops plus two digital loops
+ Reported great conversion specs, havent heard reports of colored conversion.
+/- Model quality is "up there" but how does it compare to fractal?
- Horrendous latency when combining full effect chain with a loop
- Need external volume pedal ($200)
- Lacking effects at this price point, unknown the pace or quality of support.

Line6 Anything
+ Greater variety of effects than any brand
- Sound quality is not an improvement on what I have.
- Lesser conversion quality, reports of colored loops
(Summary: I'm looking for better amps, not more effects)

Headrush Anything
+ Excellent UI
- Amp quality reportedly not great
- High reported latency
- Not a great selection of effects
(Summary: Out of consideration because of latency, no improvement in models)

Zoom G11 (Keep what I have)
+ Inexpensive
+ Two loops, high quality conversion
+ 2ms latency per round of conversion
+ Excellent UI
+ Multiple IRs per patch, easily loaded through app or thumb drive
- Amps are good, but not best in class.
- Limited global options
- Limited EQ options.
- No future support patches
- Too simple
(Summary: Keep this inexpensive mfx and supplement with IR-X and ToneX in the loop. Deal with lacking eq shaping by printing IRs)

Boss GT1000
+ Boss tweakability
+ Two loops
+ Best latency of any device
+ Amp switching
- Pretty bad interface in 2024, uninspiring
- Amps not my preference
- Complicated setup and routing
(Summary: I bought and returned this. Not in consideration because of UI and poor IR handling. Doesnt give me better amps)


What it comes down to is that the FM3 probably has the best amps, but a horrible UI. Affordable.

The Quad Cortex has apparently nice UI and sounds, but costs almost twice as much. Spending 2K for nice (but not best models) when I have ToneX on my computer doesn't make sense for me.

Good breakdown.. imaginge fm9 with qc/ he/tmp type interface

 

[JCW308]

From reading this entire thread, I would go with a Kemper Stage. Done deal.

 

[timbuck3]

Makes total sense. Also interested what those little things in fractal are but let’s not derail the thread too much

Its not the gui thats for sure. Its odd fractal doesnt seem to want to delve into the whole updated gui. I am betting line6 next unit will

 

[GTR37]

Its not the gui thats for sure. Its odd fractal doesnt seem to want to delve into the whole updated gui. I am betting line6 next unit will

I am sure they will but you have to wait till next Gen and the hardware to support it
You can’t just Abracadabra a touch screen

 

[Jarick]

IMO none of the latest modelers are head and shoulders better than the rest sonically, at least for the same models. In a mix they should all be able to make something that works for you.

I also think latency and converters are overblown for the most part. I can't really tell the difference between 2ms of latency and 5ms of latency. None of the hardware modelers have as much latency as running a plugin on my computer, which is definitely better than it used to be. And the converters nowadays are all pretty good.

So it really comes down to, what has all the features that you need, and what's the best workflow for you?

To me it's a toss-up between a Fractal FM9 and Quad Cortex. The FM9 has great power, gapless switching, tons of amps and effects, is extremely rugged, and very well supported. Downsides, it's a pain to program especially the footswitches, and there's a lot of options which can be annoying. Quad Cortex has great power, is extremely easy to use, very compact, and can run multiple captures. Downsides, there's limited amps and effects on board, the switches are crowded, it's hard to power, and it doesn't feel as rugged.