Should I Title This Tool or Dream Theater?

[TSJMajesty]

 

[DrewJD82]

I watched this the other night, it’s great!

Over 5 hours for Mike Portnoy to learn and record a Tool song. I’m actually surprised he went through with it, while he’s one of the greatest drummers on the planet, he’s not much of a technical guy but very much a “really fucking good meat and potatoes that can count well”, Danny is just on a different planet. Like the difference of James Hetfield and Tosin Abasi. Sometimes you can hear Danny’s influences, but his playing is so him that it’s hard to hear most of them once it’s come through his filter.

I love these videos, particularly this one, because you get to hear the character of the drummers when they’re put in these situations. Portnoy’s hits have a bounce to them, they touch the drum and they’re off immediately like a bunny hopping, Danny’s hits are so intentional, “I know exactly how hard I need to hit this and how long the stick needs to stay on the head for it to sound and ring out like I want it to, all 52,000 times I’ll hit a drum in this song”, I love that shit.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Plus, it's always easier to write your own shit, even if it's complex, than it is to learn someone else's. Especially if they employ techniques you're not accustomed to.

 

[norminal]

very much a “really fucking good meat and potatoes that can count well”

Definitely. I attended one of his drum clinics back in the 90’s and it was all focused on counting.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Definitely. I attended one of his drum clinics back in the 90’s and it was all focused on counting.

And that's the first thing he tries to when learning this, whereas, if it was me, I'd've said hell with the 'count'..., I would've just focused on the riff itself, and tried to absorb that, by feel.

Once I'd done that, then I might try to put actual time signatures to it.

It's like that main riff in Xanadu..., I don't "count" that in 7, I just play it by feel. (Plus, since it's in 7, it comes around every other time, and lands back on a 1. This takes that idea further, as do a lot of DT stuff.)

 

[DrewJD82]

And that's the first thing he tries to when learning this, whereas, if it was me, I'd've said hell with the 'count'..., I would've just focused on the riff itself, and tried to absorb that, by feel.

Once I'd done that, then I might try to put actual time signatures to it.

It's like that main riff in Xanadu..., I don't "count" that in 7, I just play it by feel. (Plus, since it's in 7, it comes around every other time, and lands back on a 1. This takes that idea further, as do a lot of DT stuff.)

Yep, I wouldn’t even have bothered with the time sigs unless I absolutely had to. The feel is so much easier to memorize than counting while playing, especially if you’re introduced a new technique. At the same time, “Let me listen to it a bunch” probably doesn’t make for compelling drum video footage.

 

[metropolis_4]

Mike Portnoy… not much of a technical guy but very much a “really fucking good meat and potatoes that can count well”

Say what? Are we talking about the same Mike Portnoy?

“meat and potatoes” and “not technical” are not phrases I would ever associate with Portnoy

 

[TSJMajesty]

At the same time, “Let me listen to it a bunch” probably doesn’t make for compelling drum video footage.

Good point.

I doubt Tool ever wrote anything out as they were writing it.

 

[DrewJD82]

Say what? Are we talking about the same Mike Portnoy?

“meat and potatoes” and “not technical” are not phrases I would ever associate with Portnoy

His actual drum parts themselves aren’t overly complicated, they don’t require a ton of independence and they don’t utilize a lot of drum technique outside the fundamental rudiments and paradiddles. He’s got his signature Portnoy fills, but even those were based off stuff Terry Bozzio was doing in the 80’s and it’s the same principle, Portnoy just plays them faster and on more drums.

He can count like a motherfucker, but even when he’s playing in an odd time it’s generally a fairly basic beat. He plays in technical bands that play technical music, but his actual parts aren’t actually all that technical.

And none of that is to dismiss him as a player, it’s nothing anything he hasn’t said himself for quite some time. He’s a pioneer of that genre and no one else was playing like that when he came out and he’s got an instantly recognizable sound and feel, but that still doesn’t make his actual drum parts technical.

 

[metropolis_4]

His actual drum parts themselves aren’t overly complicated, they don’t require a ton of independence and they don’t utilize a lot of drum technique outside the fundamental rudiments and paradiddles. He’s got his signature Portnoy fills, but even those were based off stuff Terry Bozzio was doing in the 80’s and it’s the same principle, Portnoy just plays them faster and on more drums.

He can count like a motherfucker, but even when he’s playing in an odd time it’s generally a fairly basic beat. He plays in technical bands that play technical music, but his actual parts aren’t actually all that technical.

And none of that is to dismiss him as a player, it’s nothing anything he hasn’t said himself for quite some time. He’s a pioneer of that genre and no one else was playing like that when he came out and he’s got an instantly recognizable sound and feel, but that still doesn’t make his actual drum parts technical.

I guess it depends on what your definition of “technical” and “drum technique” is and what you’re measuring against.

Portnoy may be no Benny Greb, or Virgil Donati, or Jojo Mayer when it comes to pure technique but he is still up there in the upper echelons of technical when it comes to rock drummers.

When I think “meat and potatoes” and “not very technical” I think guys like Lars, or Dave Grohl, or any of the typical rock drummers and I’d say Portnoy is a very good step above those guys in terms of technique and complexity.

If you want to talk about people who are on another planet Terry Bozzio is absolutely insane. His compositions for solo drum set are

I once saw him do a thing at a clinic where he was layering polyrhythms over polyrhythms. He did an off the cuff example where he was speaking in 3, clapping 5 over that while stomping 4 over that.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Gavin Harrison

/thread

 

[DrewJD82]

I guess it depends on what your definition of “technical” and “drum technique” is and what you’re measuring against.

Portnoy may be no Benny Greb, or Virgil Donati, or Jojo Mayer when it comes to pure technique but he is still up there in the upper echelons of technical when it comes to rock drummers.

When I think “meat and potatoes” and “not very technical” I think guys like Lars, or Dave Grohl, or any of the typical rock drummers and I’d say Portnoy is a very good step above those guys in terms of technique and complexity.

If you want to talk about people who are on another planet Terry Bozzio is absolutely insane. His compositions for solo drum set are

I once saw him do a thing at a clinic where he was layering polyrhythms over polyrhythms. He did an off the cuff example where he was speaking in 3, clapping 5 over that while stomping 4 over that.

Like I said in my first post about him, there’s a reason he’s known as one of the world’s greatest drummers. I’d agree on complexity due to the songwriting but not technique. I’d put him directly between all the players you mentioned when it comes to technique. If you break down his parts and play them slowly, they aren’t hard to grasp right away because they’re mainly utilizing the fundamentals. He adds a ton of character to them and his personality is all over the place, but they aren’t that technical.

Give me an example of something and I’ll surely agree.

 

[metropolis_4]

If you break down his parts and play them slowly, they aren’t hard to grasp right away because they’re mainly utilizing the fundamentals.

That accurately describes about 95% of drum parts in rock music




Danny Carey is awesome, but I think you’re short changing Portnoy

 

[DrewJD82]

That accurately describes about 95% of drum parts in rock music

That’s my point!!!!!!!

 

[Sleezy E]

My last band did a cover of 46 & 2. The break down in the middle was nothing but eyeballs. The part when the guitar adds a beat and goes off time of the bass... woof.

Every time we nailed it.. it was high fives, lol

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Gavin Harrison

/thread

Really? He wasn’t even the end all in Crimson.

I’m a big fan of great drummers and played, toured, recorded with a few A level guys and my take is that just a pure crazy ability goes then Portnoy is not (and I’m gonna just go through the list with guys I worked) on the level of Weckl, Greb, Carey, Minneman, Anur, Garstka, Rosenblatt, but to actually bring that to a point…

None of them could do the DT gig as well as he did as we saw from the Minnemann DT auditions.

IOW chops or whatever one wants to call it matter little in comparison of making a band sound great by adding to the stew.

Side note…Carey’s side project Volto is one of my fave things he’s done.

 

[metropolis_4]

That’s my point!!!!!!!

But still, this song alone is more technical, more complex, and more technique than the vast majority of rock drumming out there. Especially from about 7:20 on.

Within the realm of rock drummers I’d say that puts him above the realm of not very technical and just meat and potatoes.

In the realm of fusion and jazz he may be low on the list, but in the realm of rock drummers he’s in the upper end of technical and complex.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

But still, this song alone is more technical, more complex, and more technique than the vast majority of rock drumming out there. Especially from about 7:20 on.

Within the realm of rock drummers I’d say that puts him above the realm of not very technical and just meat and potatoes.

In the realm of fusion and jazz he may be low on the list, but in the realm of rock drummers he’s in the upper end of technical and complex.

It’s funny how you put this. And what’s even funnier I find acceptable.

Now if we do the same thing with guitar players, with all the highly regarded Rock/shred dudes…I’d find it super offensive. Since from note choice to phrasing, to pocket, etc… most of them couldn’t shine the shoes of guys from Benson to Holdsworth, or even Django.

And even some Fusion guys I was on a session the guy who is semi well known (at least in Europe) was bitch moaning that he needed a chart.
Got no ears? Lol

 

[DrewJD82]

But still, this song alone is more technical, more complex, and more technique than the vast majority of rock drumming out there. Especially from about 7:20 on.

Within the realm of rock drummers I’d say that puts him above the realm of not very technical and just meat and potatoes.

In the realm of fusion and jazz he may be low on the list, but in the realm of rock drummers he’s in the upper end of technical and complex.

I think there’s some confusion over “technical”. The music is technical, the individual techniques are not. There’s speed in there, but again, the actual technique isn’t technically challenging to play.

Like if this were guitar playing, a sweep/tapping lick is something many players would find technically challenging to play, but playing a scale fast up and down the neck isn’t really a technical challenge as much as it is a speed challenge. The fills, grooves and rhythms are fairly basic things, with a shitload of personality and speed added to them. I’m not sure how else to phrase it.

 

[OrganicZed]

I loved watching this. I would bet money that Mike Mangini would have accomplished this challenge faster.